Dear Folks,
OK. I am going to be playing catch up here. The modem on my computer at the house got fried by lighting Friday night and I have been out of the loop for so long that I might never get back up to speed.
First let me say several things to Ash. When I said that you saved me the trouble of falling into Julie’s stereotype trap, I did not mean to infer that your extraction from the trap was anything but brilliant, only that you saved me from making a fool of myself. Also, I will take Kristin Scott Thomas and leave Andie MacDowell for you. Since I saw that scene in The English Patient when Ms Thomas got into the tub, I have given my life over to trying to re-create that scene. If I ever get enough money I am going to write a screenplay which such a scene in it, hire her, and cast myself as the male lead. There will be a lot of rehearsal.
I did like your plea for understanding for parents. Ms Bennet’s criticism of her kind, loving and humorous father, falls on deaf ears here. From her comments, she seems to be looking for a father like mine - a man full of rectitude, piety, control and advice. I would invite her to give such a father a try for a few days. I suspect she would go running back to what she had. I would have traded my father’s personality in for Mr. Bennet’s and given a new Rolls Royce and a few hundred dollars to boot.
Julie: A machine shop is a place where equipment is fabricated and repaired, In the case of my neighbor’s shop, the stuff he does is mostly farm related. I thank you for the various tips you are giving me as regards my trip. Please keep them coming. You are going to have a voice at that seminar. Of course, it will be me speaking the words and we all know what that might lead to.
For example, David, my OED is on CD and much to my chagrin, the CD, like a print OED requires that I actually spell the word right in the first place. God knows what I must have typed. I am not a careful person.
For the last, I have saved my most heartfelt remarks. Laurie: DON’T DO IT. Do anything else, even to the extent of becoming a teacher who does nothing but ask for examples of irony in Jane Austen, just don’t become a lawyer. There are lawyers in my family and they are all at one of three stages:
Every good person I know who is a lawyer ought to be doing something else, and worst of all, they know it. I have three daughters and I told each of them that I was very proud that none of them had become Jenny Jones or a lawyer. I hope I said this in the humorous and loving manner that would have made my hero, Mr. Bennet, proud.
Dear Folks,
I am never comfortable with a consensus (that is a personality defect) but I have learned to keep my mouth shut most of the time. However, I cannot allow a consensus currently building in the community to go unchallenged. I am speaking of the consensus against the parents depicted in Jane Austen's novels. I believe that the majority of the parents that Jane Austen invented for her novels are not merely adequate, they are excellent.
Let me begin with the exceptions to the rule that I want to defend. Lady Susan is the worst of parents, a truly malignant example. The uncle that raised the Crawfords (MP) might be worthy of some criticism. Who raised Willoughby (S&S)? Many will demand that I add Lady Bertram (MP) and Sir Walter (P) to this list, but I am not convinced.
How are we to judge a parent? Are we to do that based upon the result, upon the quality of the child at adulthood? I don't think so because there truly is free will in this world and some of what an adult becomes is based upon their own choices. So, the same family and set of circumstances that produced an Elizabeth Bennet also produced a Lydia Bennet. Maria Bertram was raised by the same parents as Edmund. Elizabeth Elliot is the sister of Anne. The same couple that raised Fitzwilliam and Georgianna also raised Wickham. If you insist upon judging the parent based upon the child, then God help you.
Incidentally, if the parents are to be judged by the quality of the children, then surely you will agree that Jane Austen's own parents were excellent - No, the elder Austens were magnificent parents.
I believe that we must judge a parent based upon the effort that parent makes to secure a happy and secure future for the children and we must make that judgment with due consideration of the limitations of the parent. For example, I believe Mrs. Bennet to be the best of mothers. We are all embarrassed by her lack of decorum and self-control but "so what?" says I. The woman is devoted to her daughters - all of her daughters. She knows that they are handicapped by the lack of adequate dowry (as she was once herself); she knows that her husband is not getting any younger, she herself is not getting any younger, and the daughters are not getting any younger either. Mrs. Bennet is determined that her daughters will marry as well as possible, if not more so, and - didn't you notice - she succeeds admirably. I hope your children marry as well. Here is the quiz: based upon the same standard, what kind of parent is Mr. Bennet? Based upon the same standard, most of the parents in the novels grade-out as excellent parents. I include Lady Catherine who struggles to secure the best possible outcome for her daughter, even to the extent of traveling all that distance to Elizabeth's garden in order to protect her sickly cub's expectations. Oh sure, she is seriously trounced in that garden, but she makes the effort. And before you criticize her for her treatment of Elizabeth, I hope you will study the latter's visit to Rosings and discover that Lady C goes out of her way to explain to Elizabeth that she loves her and wants to become her protector and benefactor - as long as Elizabeth keeps her place - well.
I have a lot more to say on this matter.
Dear Ashton,
I agree with your analysis of JA's fictional parents. Describing individuals, warts and all, was part of her genius. Should JA have pretended that, because they were parents, Mr. and Mrs. Bennet or Charles and Mary Musgrove were perfect?
I have always read that JA died of Addison's disease, so yes, that was what I was referring to, although jokingly. Being tanned didn't become a status symbol until the early nineteen-sixties, when it became the "exotic" exception rather than the rule. Sort of like being thin is these days. (At least in the western world.) I'll see what I can do to look up the reference. However, I don't quite understand your statement about Addison not describing the disease until after JA's death. Is there a rule that you can't die of something until it's described in the medical books? I wish.
From the Meister: No, I wasn't suggesting that, but I
was so
cryptic that it is fair to wonder if that was my meaning. What
I
had hoped to convey is that no doctor who actually observed
Jane Austen could
have made that diagnosis because the disease
had not yet been described. The
diagnosis is only 20th century
speculation.
Meister: Bravo to you for your defense of parents in the world of Jane. Why must characters in novels be held to standards of perfection so high that no real human ever attains them? You are thumpingly right about Mrs. Bennet and Lady Catherine. Only think of Sir Thomas and his grief! He learns from Maria's disgrace and takes a hands-on approach to a son-in-law he would have preferred not to have, for Julia's sake. Now, there's a father who deserves our compassion and respect.
Heather: I differ with your characterization of Anne's behaviour at the end of Persuasion, i.e. that she takes charge of her life. Heavens, how I hate that phrase! It implies that you have missed the point of the novel, so eloquently announced by its title. Anne has never been anyone's prisoner. She was persuaded, not forced, to renounce love the first time around. She had doubts herself, which led her to heed the well-meaning advice of those she loved and trusted. At the novel's denouement, circumstances have changed in ways previously unforeseen. The lovers are more mature, wiser for sadness. They can rely on material sufficiency. They are the better for having waited. All of which goes to prove one of my contentions. Wise actions are no assurance of happy endings, and foolish actions are no promise of eventual failure. The best a person can hope is to do his or her best at a given moment. Anne has done this admirably in Persuasion, taken her knocks, and come out ahead. Let us not insult her by assuming less.
Dear Laurie,
Emma is a delightful novel and you will fall in love with a whole village full of people, not the least of whom acts as their little queen, but Persuasion has a more satisfactory ending, as far as I'm concerned. Anne Elliot is a very gentle, unassuming person but she can take charge when she needs to. She never has an Elizabeth Bennet/Lady Catherine war of words in the garden with anyone, which is too bad, but she finally takes charge of her life, and does what she wants, rather than what everyone else expects of her. I love that moment. I'm looking forward to discussing these books, and I think I'll have to read them again so you won't leave me in the dust.
Dear Ashton,
You're right, it is hard to talk about educational plans, etc. and not give away too much about yourself. However, I can safely tell you that I am a junior in high school, and no, I have not decided on a university yet. I am looking around though, mostly at small or medium-sized liberal arts colleges. I am planning a major of some sort of combination of English, Foreign Language, and International Business. I am also hoping to someday attend law school. Don't ridicule me please - I am genuinely interested in law and I hope to avoid criminal work as much as possible. I actually think I would like to go into international law. It would be a great way for me to do some traveling, which I've always wanted to do.
By the way, I have just finished Northanger Abbey and am about to start Persuasion. Having read so much criticism on Austen, I was able to detect a lot of the humor and satire in NA and I really enjoyed it. I am also really excited to read what is said to be Austen's most mature novel, Persuasion.
I have to confess that I never expected to like Jane Austen so much when I set out to do a project on her. She has quickly become my favorite author, and I think that you are doing a great thing with this board. You give people like me a place to come and have intelligent discourses about their favorite author as well as other pieces of literature. None of my friends understand why I like Jane Austen so much - to them she is kind of boring and tedious. For example, with my last post, I was so excited about what I was discovering in Austen's work that I really wanted to share it with someone. Keep up the great work with the board!
Dear Folks,
I have been given six weeks to turn from a brown suit to a tuxedo. Today in the mail came the outline of the Jane Austen course I am attending in Exeter. What I need is for everyone here gathered to quit his or her job and give full attention to seeing that I do not make a fool of myself. In the first place I know next to nothing about "minor works and juvenilia". What I need here are a few key phrases which I can use to skate past this section (its only a half day). There is a full day devoted to "Jane Austen’s family and background (with slides)" and I am ready with a few diversionary questions like, "Why is it that Jane Austen is buried at Westminster instead of with her family?" You know, the kind of question to turn the discussion from something I know nothing about to a topic to which no one, including our "tutor" has a clear answer.
Next, I need to know what our position is now on Faye Weldon. Do we hate her or do we view her contributions as "interesting"? Or is she as worse jerk than Sir Walter? What?
Another topic is "Estates in the time of Jane Austen" Knowing what a ha-ha is, I feel ready for this topic. Then comes "William Gilpin and the picturesque in Jane Austen novels."
There is a "Quiz Night in the Cross Keys Bar". It is described as "light-hearted" I do not believe a word of it, and look for a cut- throat demonstration of Jane Austen trivia, What I have planned for this is a conference call to the US, Canada and certainly not least, Tasmania. I will sit in a dark corner and relay the questions by cell phone. Please set aside what ever else you might be doing on the night of Sunday, July 18 between 8-9:30PM. Greenwich Time.
Other topics include:
I note with some interest that there is no mention (so far) of any irony, but I am keeping an eagle out, ready to pounce on our "tutor" and rip his/her tweed jacket to bits. There are several items on the schedule with which I feel very comfortable, most notably those calling for meals and free time for swimming.
OK, you have your assignments. I am actually prepared to read some suggested texts on the topics but would much prefer pre-digested ideas and information.
I am not unaware of Laurie’s slur on the character of my hero Mr. Bennet and I will get in some practice by defending him (again) as soon as I can get over the need to pull myself together for the (no doubt) Jane Austen freaks I will meet in England. Those people could be dangerous.
Dear Ray and Julie,
I just wanted to tell Ray that I did not mean my posting from the other day as a slur on Mr. Bennet. In fact, Mr. Bennet is one of my favorite Austen characters. I was simply stating the acknowledged fact that there are things that Mr. Bennet could have done differently in the upbringing of his daughters, and if he had done these things differently many of the problems that come up later could have been avoided.
To Julie - no, I am not a man running around in "drag." I am in fact a genuine female. And I also do not have any unusual bumper stickers on my car. (In fact, I don't have any, but only because my dad won't let me.) I am a perfectly normal, average American teenaged high school student. Don't get me wrong - I have my quirks, but they're all pretty harmless. Thanks for the insightful reply to my post. I never really thought about how the parents in her novels are treated in general. The only parents that I can think of (with the exception of any parents in Persuasion or Emma, which I have not yet read) that are not particularly disliked are the Morlands of Northanger Abbey. However, as you pointed out, that may be a plot device since Catherine is away from her parents for most of the novel.
Dear Laurie,
I do beg your pardon. I took 'Laurie' as an abbreviation for 'Lawrence', which is what it would be in this country. Similarly, in Australia a 'fanny' is not a behind, but rather 'the fortune that every girl is sitting on'. And hasn't THAT quirk got me into trouble before now!
You really must read Emma. For the art and genius of Jane Austen, there is no finer example. I wish I could remember now how I felt when I read the book for the first time, as so much of the pleasure of the book comes from not knowing about the way in which the sky eventually falls on Miss Woodhouse.
But for now, I must get up off of my potential fortune, and go and do some
work - not as highly paid, alas, but more congenial.
Julie
Dear Ray,
The degree of prior knowledge required will depend on your fellow travellers, I think, and whether the members of the group are assembling to learn, or to show off what they know already. For minor works and juvenalia, you can't go past Chapman, but unfortunately he's out of print. How fortunate that I possess a copy! How unfortunate that I am so far away! If at all possible, find out what a mantuamaker is before you commence your tour - that will give you at least one brownie point.
Now, more importantly: I hereby commission you, by the power vested in me by goatdom, to find out, while in England, how one (and I am the one) would go about acquiring a copy of either Burke's or De Brett's Peerage. Remember, your mission must not fail. This message will not self-destruct. I don't give a rat's arse how much it costs; I just need to know to whom I should mail the cheque!
Off you go, son.
Julie
Dear Julie,
Julie, you can send your check (or cheque) to Amazon.com and they will send you either peerage. The Burke’s is $250 and ships in 3-4 days, the DeBrett’s is $395 and ships in 4-6 weeks. I looked first in our library supplier’s database and found them both, but we get no discount on either of the books so I can’t help you save any money.
Ash jumped into your stereotype trap and saved me the trouble of missing by a mile. Of course, it was so clearly a trap that I could see the handwriting on the wall and while I might not have guessed a black American basketball player, I was ready to get pretty wild with my guess. (Not so wild as Andie MacDowell however) As to your question as to what I think you look like, I have gleaned certain stuff over the past several months, all of that might give me a real good start in recognizing you in the grocery store. Of course it could all be a fraud. For all I know, you might be the guy who lives next door to me and runs a machine shop. However, what I would look for is a white woman who has red hair and who might be of an age to have been a nursing sister for twenty-five years. Most of all I would look for a woman with a look about her that said "If you have something to say to me it had better make sense and be worth my while."
I thank you for the tip on the Chapman and I can get it through interlibrary loan. I do hope that my fellow travelers are coming to learn and not to show off, but I have serious doubts that any sane person who knew nothing or almost nothing of Jane Austen would fly to England to get some basic knowledge. Talking about stereotypes, I am going out on a limb here and guessing that the people who come to this class are all coming with some type of Jane Austen axe to grind. As for me, I will be grinding my irony axe, my teachers are ruining Jane Austen axe, and my Mr. Bennet is a really great guy axe, etc. Who we will not have in attendance is my stereotypical Jane Austen reader. All of the women will be over fifty-five. I‘m guessing that the males will be outnumbered five to one. At least I hope they are. Women are much better at listening to my stories than men are.
Mantuamaker? Even the mighty OED is silent. If I ever find out what it means I will have a real conversation stopper in my arsenal.
Dear Ray,
Let me remind you of what Jane Austen - I mean Elizabeth Bennet thought about Mr. Bennet.
"Elizabeth, however, had never been blind to the impropriety of her father's behavior as a husband. She had seen it all with pain; but respecting his abilities, and grateful for his affectionate treatment of herself, she endeavored to forget what she could not overlook, and to banish from her thoughts that continual breach of conjugal obligation and decorum which, in exposing his wife to the contempt of her own children, was so highly reprehensible. But she never felt so strongly as now, ... the evils arising from so ill judged a direction of talents; talents which, rightly used, might at least have preserved the respectability of his daughters, even if incapable of enlarging the mind of his wife."
A lot of strong language in that. I can understand the need to stand against a tide, but against a tide set in motion by our Lady?
Dear Ray,
One feels that you are too hasty in maligning the superb Oxford English Dictionary. If you had cared to look at page 339, first column, indeed first entry, of Volume IX you would have found "mantuamaker". I have just bought the dictionary for a trifle from one of my wine merchants. If any Australians are interested I can send the details. 20 volumes for A$1600 (instead of $5500)
Whilst Laurie is quite correct about the ineffectual fathers in P&P and Mansfield Park, the mothers were more so especially as one would expect mothers to have a more central role in the parenting of girl children. I have a badly remembered quote from Phillip Larkin that parents do try the best they can-but always stuff it up.
The Folio Society in London publishes the complete works of Miss
Austen in a splendid edition for about A$200, which includes all the
Juvenalia.
David
Dear Ray, Julie, Laurie,
Ray: Among our books is a 50 year old cloth bound unabridged dictionary of the type that was to be seen on pedestals in public libraries. The cover is missing so I can't identify it, other than to say it is an American dictionary, it's not a "Websters," and that the editor was Harold Whitehall, B.A., Ph.D. It lists a mantuamaker as: "One who makes gowns for women a dressmaker." A corruption of the French manteau which is defined as 1: "A mantle or cloak." 2: "A variety of woman's gown open in the front." [Obs.]
Perhaps Julie could help you with using the Addison's disease angle to impress the Tweedy Ones. Is there a hidden conspiracy linking Jane with President Kennedy? Is there a poignant personal story behind Caroline Bingley's catty remark "How very ill Eliza Bennet looks this morning Mr. Darcy, I never in my life say anyone so much altered as she is since the winter. She is grown so brown and coarse! Louisa and I were agreeing that we should not have known her."
Julie: There's nothing at all wrong with San Francisco, (I was speaking in the "cities bad, country good" context) except that everyone drives like a serious nut, their "best" bookstores are on a level with any chain bookstore, and that I didn't get to spend as much time in China town as I wanted to.
Laurie: I'm glad to hear you're reading Persuasion. To those who claim Emma is Austen's masterwork I say "Nuts!" Persuasion is the truest and most complete portrait JA painted. Those who quibble about the accident scene should be sentenced to watching "Hee Haw" reruns until their hair turns green.
Dear Cheryl,
I assume that you know that some believe Miss Bingley's remark is related to Addison's disease. Apparently the sufferers of that disease will experience a darkening of the skin that we all mistook for a sun tan in John Kennedy. People take descriptions of Jane Austen's highly-colored complexion and tell us that this was the tell-tale "sun tan". I am unconvinced. If she were sun-tanned in this way it might have caused her some anguish in that same way Miss Bingley hoped to inflict on Elizabeth Bennet. I don't believe this was racism so much as class prejudice - only field workers should have been colored in this way. That was the same sort of prejudice that existed in much of the world, not just in Europe.
How many of you would accept a diagnosis of a life-threatening illness over the phone? Let me guess the answer - none of us! And yet some very intelligent folks have accepted that Jane Austen died of Addison's disease even though Dr. Addison did not even describe his disease until twenty or thirty years after our Lady's death. If you want to read one dissent from this view, see Appendix i in Claire Tomalin's biography [Tomalin-JA].
Dear Gentlemen,
Sods, the pair of you. If I were to be found coming out of a shop, which is rare, as I hate shopping, I would be readily discernible by virtue of the gumboots, tracksuit bottoms with holes in the most enlightening places, and a surly look on my face, because I hate shopping.
I suppose they were American dollars, Ray? I should be able to buy an actual peer for that (about $600 Australian), never mind the book! A mantuamaker is, I believe, a cloakmaker. I spent months hunting for it once, but I can't now remember where I dug up the answer.
What's a machine shop? Do you mean a garage?
There will probably be more axes on your tour than in a Viking invasion,
Ray. Heaven knows, there are enough here, and we only write to each
other. By all means, get stuck in on the irony issue though. You
could also try paralleling the novels with Jane Austen's life experiences, and
developing views - I am thinking of parts of Mansfield Park here, and
Jane Austen's privately expressed views on the way in which Edward was rearing
his children. Also of Jane's developing religious views, which she
discussed in letters to Fanny Knight.
Julie
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