The Voices of Men in Praise of Jane Austen
Messages on the Bulletin Board - c. Nov. 1, 2000

Dear Folks,

I took Linda's hint - our friend's link - and obtained a copy of Jane Austen's "Sir Charles Grandison". It cost a little more than $20 and arrived from England in a plain brown wrapper. The address was handwritten, but the return was a label with this information:

I had exchanged e-mail messages with the firm. The representative was Malcolm Summers, and his e-mail address is helstonb@dialstart.net.

The book itself is very small 7.5" x 5". The play itself, only occupies 20 pages, but there are 150 pages all together - much of it background, editor's notes, and a learned forward.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy (a position I'm all too familiar with), but perhaps it's time we reigned in a bit on speculation about influences by concentrating on the works of Our Dear Jane.

There are several that have been little mentioned on the Board. I am referring to Lady Susan, The Watsons, and Sanditon.

In this post I want to bring up Lady Susan.

My question is: Why did ODJ so abruptly end the epistalatory part of the novel and continue the story in the third person in just a few paragraphs?

My opinion is that she tired of the form. It was too constraining and perhaps too old fashioned for her.

There's nothing wrong with the story in itself. I wish that ODJ had written the story in her usual style. It would have been a very humorous novel. It couldn't help have been. The novel, as it stands, is funny. As regular visitors to the Board know, I consider Mary Crawford a nasty piece of work, but Lady Susan has got her beat hands down. And I do not think that there are very many readers who would think of Lady Susan as a saint.

Now that I think of it, many one of the weaknesses of the novel is that it's a little too black and white. It comes a little too close to the hiss the villain, cheer the hero type of novel. But so what? I'm sure that there have been a few ballerinas who have wanted to do a burlesque routine just to show that they could (though most of them can't. It's like listening to Itzhak Perlman trying to play bluegrass).

Lady Susan isn't one Our Dear Jane's first rate works, but it is fun. And think of the movie possibilities. Who else better to play Lady Susan than Greta Scacchi?

Dear Dave,

You are quite right, still more conversation about Jane Austen's works would be a good thing. In fact, I am about to bring up Northanger Abbey for more discussion, but your suggestions may be even better. It was never my intent that there would only be a single topic discussed here; in fact, the one rule I would ever hope to impose is anybody, anything, anytime - Well, at least as long as it relates - in some way, regardless of how remote - to Jane Austen, her works, or her times. I am trying to say that anybody can begin a completely new discussion at will. (It is my day dream to someday put together a web site where I am only rarely a participant myself.)

I suspect that Lady Susan was one of the first things that our Lady wrote, perhaps she was in her teens at the time. I say that because she was then avidly reading Samuel Richardson who wrote in the epistolary style. Perhaps the most wildly popular contemporary novels of the time were written in that style as well; for example, there were Rousseau's Julie, The New Heloise and Goethe's The Sorrows of Young Werter.

My own guess of the reason for the abrupt change in style is exactly your own. Another possibility is that our Lady realized that she had failed to take advantage of the main possibility offered by the epistolary form - the possibility of presenting more than a single point-of-view. That is the advantage not offered by the narrative form that Jane Austen eventually adopted.

As I understand it, the history of the novella is roughly as follows. It was not published until some fifty years after her death. Her immediate family couldn't help noticing that Aunt Jane's novels were still in print and were still being read! - Imagine that! They were hearing a lot of non-sensical speculations about her, and so her nephew, now an old man, decided to publish a biography. More surprise - it was a big hit! As part of a later addition, he decided to publish Lady Susan, which had been laying about gathering dust. To do that, he had to overcome a great deal of opposition from family members - good for him! It almost seems that Jane Austen herself had no intention of ever publishing Lady Susan - I say "almost" because there is one fact that indicates the opposite - our Lady had made a "fair copy", a careful rewrite incorporating all additions and corrections to the original manuscript. It may be that Jane Austen was reluctant to publish because she had a living model for Lady Susan, a neighbor, Mrs. Craven. For that I refer you to a Jane Austen Society publication, Reminiscences of Caroline Austen (a niece).

Greta Scacchi eh? - you're not kidding me, you just want to look at her again - I know how you think! Well, she can have the roll, but only if Julianne Moore passes it over.

Dear Dave,

Since I had not yet read Lady Susan I printed it out and stayed up way past my bedtime reading it.

I think Ashton may be right, because I get the sense that it was done early in her career as an attempt to imitate the epistolary style.  I say "early" because I don't see the complexity (it is short) as compared to her other works.  If Ashton is right about the living model, I can see her writing it as an exposé of her neighbor and, good Christian that she was, not publishing it.

Dave, you say, "it is fun."  There are some Lady Susans in my family and believe me, they are not fun.  Without such personal experience though, I can see how you might call it so.  Or, as you are a man, you might handle a Lady Susan differently - so they wouldn't get on your last nerve. Therefore, I can agree with your opinion of Lady Susan being worse (lots worse) than Mary Crawford.

I did enjoy reading it though.  It brought to my attention that there have always been, and still are, Lady Susans in the world.

Ashton, since you have mentioned it, I feel that I need to look into Reminiscences of Caroline Austen.  Discretion dictates that I not comment on Greta Scacchi - you men can toss that around.  Watch it! Don't say it! Now that was a poor choice of words!

Dave, you are not at all a killjoy - the influences are something I do want to pursue, but not at the expense of neglecting the works of Our Dear Jane.  See, you have already gotten me to read Lady Susan.

I would like to mention that the study of her influences and her vision are of interest to me for two reasons.

My inspiration to do this came from something I read a long time ago -forgive my faulty memory.  There was a man (there have been several through the years) who translated the Bible to English by only reading it in the original languages to understand the spirit as well as the letter.  He thought something might be wrong with the KJV.  Such projects lead to "discoveries" such as - the one I remember - the geographical locations had gotten widely "misplaced" in translation.  He merely transliterated the names.  I remember thinking at the time that could probably be the reason why Noah's Ark had not been found - the explorers were looking in the wrong place based on a faulty translation!  I can't help wondering what discoveries might be found about Our Dear Jane.

Here are two things I want to do for my own amusement in searching for Her Vision:

This is a huge undertaking, but I suppose it is best to have some goal in life - this will be my hobby.  But first I want to finish the passionate passages.  A thousand mile journey is accomplished one step at a time!  Ash, just see what you have started!  I am not complaining though.

And now I have "work" to do.
Linda

Dear Linda and Dave,

I strongly recommend Reminiscences of Caroline Austen. Caroline Mary Craven Austen (1805-1880) was Jane Austen's niece, the youngest child of Jane Austen's oldest brother, James. Her reminiscences have very little to say about her famous Aunt Jane, but there is much about our Lady's neighborhood, neighbors, family, and social conditions. These are only a set of disorganized notes arranged in chronological order, but Caroline had the Austen gift for expressing herself and she seems perceptive and wise. The volume was edited and introduced by Deirdre Le Faye and published by The Jane Austen Society in 1986. You can purchase JAS publications at P.G. Wells.

Caroline's brother, James Edward Austen-Leigh was Jane Austen's first biographer. After responding to her brother's request for memories of their aunt, Caroline decided to set down her reminiscences of other aspects of her, by then, long life. Her life was long but uneventful, and that may have been a good thing because that allowed her to focus on details that are of interest to most of us - the details of everyday family life and neighborhood. You will see a good deal more bitterness and preoccupation with social conditions than in her Aunt Jane's novels and letters - more grittyness.

More to the point are the family stories Caroline relates of her great-grandmother, Mrs Craven, who some, most notably Deirdre Le Faye, think was a model for Lady Susan. (There are also some great revelations about Lord Craven in Le Faye's endnotes - I won't spoil that for you by giving details here.) Jane Austen was a great girlhood friend of both Caroline's mother and aunt, and, so, would have been in a position to know much about the old dragon. (Both mother and aunt would marry Austen brothers.) But, I must be careful, no one is suggesting that Lady Susan is an encoded telling of the life of Mrs Craven and her daughter; it is simply that some experts have noticed a remarkable coincidence in the matters of character and personality.

Dear Voices,

I must confess that my favorite line from Lady Susan is in Letter 19 in which Lady Susan is talking about her sister in law's relationship with Henrietta:

"She is exactly the companion for Mrs. Vernon, who dearly loves to be first, and to have all the sense and all the wit of the conversation to herself; Frederica will never eclipse her."

Now, there's no question in my mind that Lady Susan is as big a piece of dog doodoo as Jane ever created.  But there's also no question in my mind that Lady Susan's assessment is spot-on, and it never ceases to amaze me how absolutely ruthless Jane Austen was able to be to her characters, even the ones she likes.

Think of Elizabeth Bennet standing there in agony when her mother visits the rapidly recovering Jane at Netherfield, or Catherine Morland when she realizes not only how insulting, but how stupid her suspicions of General Tilney are, or gaze up Mrs. Vernon's quivering, vivisected remains.  It places some perspective on Mrs. What-her-name's observation that everyone was afraid of Jane.
Cheryl

Dear Cheryl,

I checked my copy of Lady Susan and noticed that I had written in the words "catty remark" by the passage you quoted.  We are in agreement there.

I watched Napoleon last night on PBS.  I was struck by the similarity of Josephine's carryings on and the Court "activities" in The Princess of Cleves; Some things never change.
Regards, Linda

From the Meister:

I watched that Napoleon as well - and liked it. It contains a lot of biographical information rather than historical analysis. Am I the only one to notice that the French Revolution, contrary to accepted European opinion, had precious little to do with "democracy"? I mean that even their famous slogan calls only for liberty, equality, and solidarity. I am beginning to think that modern democracy was invented and nurtured, for the longest time, in English-language nations only. If I am correct, then we should not be surprised that all the stated goals - including equality and liberty - of that curious revolution were achieved by the Emperor Napoleon in his famous codes.

Did you notice that Napoleon was only six years older than Jane Austen?--All those meteors in western Europe!--What was happening? Josephine's bed-hopping reminds us of just how advanced French fertility technology had become by that time (the contraceptive sponge.)

Incidentally, you mentioned that you would like to know more about Mary, Queen of Scots, who appeared in such a prominent way in The Princess of Cleves; that old film starring Glenda Jackson and Vanessa Redgrave is historically accurate, and covers Mary's life after the events described in the Princess.

Dear Voices,

I was stumbling around again and thought you might find this interesting.  I wanted to know more about Madam de La Fayette's "lover" - the Duke de La Rochefoucauld.  I found this at Britannica.com. It said, "he became the leading exponent of the maxime, a French literary form of epigram that expresses a harsh or paradoxical truth with brevity."  I will say a word about "epigrams" in a moment.

Under the following article (next page on this site) called "Les Maximes", it said, "Yet his chief glory perhaps is not as thinker but as artist. In the variety and subtlety of his arrangement of words he made the maxime into a jewel. It is not always the truth of the maxim that is so striking, but its exaggeration which can surprise one into a new aspect of the truth. He describes and defines--he has no time for more--but of the single metallic image he makes amazing use."  Sound familiar?

Now, I followed the link in the first quote above to see what Britannica had to say about "epigram."  Please note this sentence - "By extension the term is also applied to any striking sentence in a novel, play, poem, or conversation that appears to express a succinct truth, usually in the form of a generalization."  Does not this sound like a description of the first sentence of Pride and Prejudice?

Then another sentence - "The Maximes (1665) of François VI, Duke de La Rochefoucauld marked one of the high points of the epigram in French, influencing such later practitioners as Voltaire. In England, John Dryden, Alexander Pope, and Jonathan Swift produced some of the most memorable epigrams of their time."  Could this possible be an influence on our Lady?  It appears that the "epigram" was "going around" at the time.

I had heard the "word" epigram before, but its meaning is now becomming clear. I found all this very interesting.
Linda

Dear Ashton & Linda,

My first reading of The Princess Of Cleves wasn't in depth, (I got awfully confused by the sheer number of characters) but I can't help but think you're right about its possible (probable) influence on Jane Austen.  If nothing else, it goes a long way to explain Jane's odd (to me) sympathy for a woman of such dubious merit at Mary, Queen of Scots.

To my mind, Sense and Sensibility is the Austen work closest to The Princess Of Cleves, Jane Austen having sensibly separated the two extremes of the Princess's personality into Marianne and Elinor Dashwood.  Certain elements of Sense and Sensibility appear to be taken almost intact from Princess of Cleves although the story is told on a more ordinary level.  The power cliques and intrigues of the court are revealed in all their true pettiness when practiced by the Steele sisters, John and Fanny Dashwood, and Robert Ferrars. Austen deals with the issue of sexual fidelity with more realism, though admittedly less candor, than Madame Lafayette. (Jane continued to explore this theme throughout the novels.)  And of course, appearance versus reality.

Edward presents a puzzle because he resembles Madame de Cleves in his strict adherence to duty and inability to love his chosen partner, yet in his position, his pursuit of Elinor isn't so very different than the Duc de Nemours' for Madame de Cleves.  But it's probably wise to remember that Jane Austen was writing comedy, not Dangerous Liaisons.

At any rate, I plan a more serious reading within the next few days so as to be able to discuss it more in depth.
Cheryl

Dear Cheryl,

You are right about the number of characters.  I had to make a list as I read to keep up with who was who.  I will have to do a quick search on Mary, Queen of Scots to refresh my memory, before I do a second read.

Yes, it is obvious that the character traits in "Cleves" pop up all over JA's novel which goes to show that "people haven't changed" in all those years.

I do want to get serious about looking for Jane's "Vision".  I am beginning to believe that comedy is taking a back seat.  But that study is "down the road apiece".  I will see if I can squeeze in a second reading, too, so I can get some of the details to "stick" in my brain.  What was unusual, for me, was that I could not put the book down.  I felt a compulsion to keep going. Only JA has done that to me in recent years.

Catch you later,
Linda

Dear Cheryl and Linda,

Yes, it is important that we remember that Madame de La Fayette was not as good as Jane Austen, nor is The Princess of Cleves as perfect as a Jane-Austen novel. For example, the thing that amused me - that was not supposed to amuse me - were the passages dealing with the letter belonging to the uncle of Madame de Cleves. I thought, "this is senior-year-in-high-school meets Byzantium." However, even those passages contributed to the internal logic of the novel and the development of events; for one thing, it gave the Duc de Nemours the opportunity to spend time alone with Madame de Cleves.

I agree that de Nemours was a bit more like Henry Crawford than Mary because Mary does seem, at times, to have a few redeeming qualities. However, I stick to my original estimate because I think the dynamics of the entire triangle in The Princess of Cleves is closer to that our Lady formed on Fanny-Edmund-Mary. But, let us be very careful - I am sure that both of you will agree that The Princess of Cleves is not so very much like Mansfield Park. I mean that Jane Austen's novels are of her own creation and not much like those of anyone else. The thing that I am trying to suggest is that Madame de La Fayette saw human nature, morality, and the proper focus of a novel in ways very much like Jane Austen's. I also think I see many similarities in style and sensitivity - far more so than in anything else I have read. What say you?

I want, here, to reply to Linda's request that I say more about the similar kind of "subtlety" that I see in Jane Austen's as well as Madame de La Fayette's novels. I don't know how to respond except to give examples. The first is from Pride and Prejudice, near the end of Darcy's failed first proposal. Elizabeth has already wounded him several times and her coup de grace is

"... and I had not known you a month before I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry."

Well, that did it - Darcy then left the interview with his head in his hands. But wait! Would she have said such a thing to Mr. Collins, for example? I don't think so - she admits here that she had considered the idea for an entire month before deciding. This is the first time in the entire novel that she acknowledges, on some level, the sexual tension that we readers have been enjoying all along! Wonderful - and subtle.

The next example is almost too subtle - I completely missed this the first two times I read Emma. Emma and Knightley are battling over her interference in Harriet's response to Mr. Martin's proposal. In the midst of her defense of Harriet's qualities, Emma says this:

"... I know that such a girl as Harriet is exactly what every man delights in--what at once bewitches his senses and satisfies his judgment. Oh! Harriet may pick and chuse. Were you, yourself, ever to marry, she is the very woman for you. ..."

Well, Jane Austen writes here for more alert readers than myself as she sets up in Emma's mind, with words from her own mouth, that Harriet might, in fact, be a match for Knightley. Later, Knightley will seem almost to confirm her judgment in another discussion with Emma at the Crown Inn ball:

" '... I will do you the justice to say, that you would have chosen for [Mr. Elton] better than he has chosen for himself.--Harriet Smith has some first-rate qualities, which Mrs. Elton is totally without. An unpretending, single-minded, artless girl--infinitely to be preferred by any man of sense and taste to such a woman as Mrs. Elton. I found Harriet more conversable than I expected.'

Emma was extremely gratified. ..."

But not for long - Well done, Miss Austen - and subtle.

On the side of Madame de La Fayette, I would refer to that single act that makes Madame de Cleves's final decision understandable and inevitable. That occurs in the passage in which de Nemours acts in such a way to poison Madame de Cleves relationship with her husband. He acts with a deliberate and insidious lie; however, a lie that seems very small - is very subtle - did you catch it? He is a swine! In any case, the novel turns on that subtlety for me.

I doubt that I have chosen the best examples, I am sure that there must be far better, but they seem to make my point.

I discovered your website via Wendy McElroy's website. I am probably something of a contradiction here; I'm a devotee of the Austen films, I am an active participant in English Country (Playford) dancing, I miss civility, politeness, and elegance that is fast disappearing from our culture. But I am also a PLAYBOY subscriber and devotee of the PLAYBOY philosophy!
Michael Serafin
Chicopee, MA.

Dear Michael,

You are very welcome here. I can say that even though our main focus has been on the novels themselves, rather than the films. However, you will find a number of us that are interested in the films as well. See
web page, the first,
web page, the second, and
web page, the third.

Can you tell us more about the dancing?

We all have our guilty pleasures, although there seems precious little guilt in your case. I can't understand my own fascination with The Sopranos - well, I can give you a high-falootin' explanation, but I only unveil that when feeling intimidated. Still, Jane Austen had six brothers and was familiar with and liked Fielding, so she may not have disliked your inclinations so very easily.

Dear Ashton,

I put "Southam, Brian" in my favorite used book site on the web: abe.com.  They have one copy for $21.51.

Please keep us posted, because I really want know what is in there - I really should call my library tomorrow. I found some more info but am too tired to write.  This is the best I can do at the moment.
Linda

From the Meister: Thank you.

Links

Back to the Bulletin Board

Table of Contents

Index & Archive

References & Links

The Male-Voices Home Page