7/28/00 Anonymous in Australia - Russell Crowe

Reference: Cheryl 6/8/00

Dear Cheryl,

How you could ever imply that simply because an actor uses another accent in a few films that their accent doesn't count?!

I'll have you know that Russell is VERY proud to be an Australiasian (he was born in New Zealand)and, prior to his recent success in the U.S has made many movies in which he speaks with his natural accent.

Before you make judgement on his ability to speak with an "Aussie" accent check out the following films that he has starred in here:

• Blood Oath 1990
• Brides of Christ (mini series) 1990
• The Crossing 1990
• Proof 1991
• For the Moment 1992
• Spotswood (with the similarily misunderstood Anthony Hopkins) 1991
• Romper Stomper 1992
• Hammers Over The Anvil 1992
• The Silver Brumby 1993
• Love in Limbo 1993
• The Sum of Us 1994 (with the equally talented and surprisingly Australian Jack Thompson who fooled them all in Midnight In The Garden of Good and Evil)

Sorry if I'm coming over like some crazy Aussie "Patriot" (just another reference to two other Aussie Actors who are convincing in foreign roles) but I am proud of their Australasian heritage, as I'm sure are they!!!

And on a Jane chat site I couldn't finish without mentioning Frances O'Connor and Toni Collette, now could I?
An Aussie Sheila and Proud

7/28/00 Anonymous in Australia - Addendum

Reference: Cheryl 6/8/00

Dear Cheryl,

And another thing!!!!

I thought I'd best add to the list of fine Aussie talent (some of whom I'm sure you were unaware were Australian at all!

• Sam Neill (The Piano, Jurassic Park)
• Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth, The Talented Mr Ripley)
• Geoffry Rush (Shine, Elizabeth, Shakespeare in Love)
• Nicole Kidman (Well..duh...)
• Guy Pearse (L.A. Confidential, Pricilla Queen of the Desert)
• Simon Denny (L.A. Confidential)
• Noah Taylor (Shine)
• Judy Davis (just about every Woody Allen film ever)
• Bryan Brown (who would never even pretend to be a yank)
• Rachel Griffiths (Hillary and Jackie, My Best Friend's Wedding)
• Hugh Jackman (X-Men)
• Etc, etc,etc...

The only reason that Aussie actors have to fake American accents is that casting agents are somehow convinced that American audiences are so stupid and ignorant that they will not be able to understand our accent! Probably not far from the truth!!!

From the Meister: O.K., you have had your say; from here on, the subject is Jane Austen. If Cheryl does reply, I will not post it. Nor will I post anything from an American who wants to reply to your insults. I strongly suggest that you carefully re-read Cheryl's post and the discussion that led up to it. To do that, you need to turn to the bulletin board and scroll to 6/8/00 and begin with Cheryl's "I came, I saw, ...". Incidentally, Julie Grassi is an Australian and participated in that discussion.

7/28/00 Cheryl - [ramcah@televar.com] I throw myself on the court and ...

Dear Meister,

I must throw myself on the court and beg to make a reply to our anonymous commentor.  Don't worry, I'll make it brief.

Hunh?

From the Meister: No. Look here, Cheryl, I need you to stay fresh because I am about to post my review of Rozema's Mansfield Park and you promised to watch my back! - remember?

What you can do is vent on me - e-mail me your feelings. That is what others are doing. Or, since you gave me permission to post your e-mail address, maybe Proud Sheila will be willing to meet you man-on-man. - I mean e-man on e-man.

7/28/00 Laurie - [l_mease@hotmail.com] Deirdre Le Faye

Dear Voices,

I was finally able to obtain a copy of Deirdre Le Faye's new biography of Jane Austen, and I must say that I am very impressed with it.  It is geared more towards juveniles, with a lot of pictures scattered throughout, but it still contains a lot of good information.  It is also very readable - she doesn't overstate things like some biographers have in the past.  I would definitely recommend it!

As a sidenote, I just found out that I have to read Charles Dickens' Bleak House for my freshman seminar on Victorian London.  Do any of you know anything about it?  I've read some of Dickens' work, but I'm not familiar with this one at all.

7/27/00 Cheryl - In good faith - the passionate passages

Dear Ashton,

Just to show that I haven't been completely ignoring your requests, I send you this fragment with more to come.  We're currently in the middle of huckleberry season which means most of my spare time is spent driving about 100 miles into the Colville National forest to pick.  Did you know it takes approximately 1300 huckleberries to make a quart?  Did you care?  Right now I have about 3 1/2 gallons of huckleberries, 26 lb of peaches and 20 lbs of apricots to make into jam and pie filling.  That's not a whine, mind you, I love every minute of it.

Here is another of my contributions to the "Passionate Passages". See the discussion of the "card party" near the end of the very long posting on Persuasion.

7/23/00 Dave Payton - [HITZ53@aol.com] Teasing, etc.

Dear Bruce,

I see that now I have become the character of the reverend in Maugham's Ra in. I might as well change my name to Jimmy Swaggart or A.A. Allen. Actually, The Verger is a little more accurate.

I am perfectly aware of the different definitions and nuances of the word "teasing." And apparently you don't like it anymore than I do. After all, have you considered the fact that I used the G-string allusion as a way of teasing you for using the word the way you did.

As far as no one asking me to apologize for the Crusades, let's just say that I was anticipating. The word itself raises the hackles among a certain segment.

Now, to get down to cases.

Fortunately or unfortunately the English language doesn't not have the number of words as the Greek to express different types of love, i.e., agape, eros, philo, etc. We have love and it's more uncontrolled manifestation, lust. As you pointed out, they are often cousins. But that does not mean that they are the same or even always together.

There is no indication in Mansfield Park that Fanny lusts after Edmund. She does not pine over him or throw her self in his path. She does not incessantly write him letters. Her love for him is not lust. It is a quiet, controlled love. It is, I daresay, an appreciative, and, perhaps, devotional love for the one person who has been consistently kind to her. I would not even say that it was a romantic love.

As a matter of fact, Fanny, more than any other character in the novel, is a loving character. She not only loves Edmund, but also her brothers. She loves her parents despite the fact that her long absence from the family makes her she them in a different light. She may be embarrassed by them (what young adult hasn't been embarrassed by their parents at some time?), or disappointed by them, but she still loves them. The same cannot be said about the Bertram children. For most of the novel none of the Bertram children even respect Sir Thomas except for Edmund. You may not like Fanny, but she is a dutiful and loving character without guile. Perhaps you'd prefer that she be portrayed as a young Lady Susan Vernon?

The depictions of lust in the novel are Henry Crawford, Maria Bertram and Thomas Bertram (lust for excitement). Edmund Bertram is also a victim of the malady. But Edmund at least opens his eyes and sees the score.

My point about not liking Emma Woodhouse in the novel and liking her in the films is simply that if one feels differently about her in the films then the film is not an accurate reflection of the novel. When I watch a film version of The Sea Wolf I do not expect to see a portrayal of Wolf Larson played in a likable manner. If the film portrays him as such then I am not watching Jack London's story. I'm watching Mel Brook's story with the same name.

And finally, in defense of my stand on morality of MP I quote:

"...Or the objector imputes to us-because he was hurt by fundamentalist religion or else for love of obstruction for its own sake-imputes to us some medieval notion of God and his angels propelling thing celestial around their Ptolemaic rings, giving man a harmonious model to imitate (concordant moral laws), and he demands - hissing at us, shaking his finger - that we show him an angel, one single live angel or his footprint. Worst of all, the objector looks into his heart and sees chaos there, and denies, forever after, that one mode of action is better than another for senseless, purposeless, humanity. We see that we're mired in that old bog L'etre et le neant.
                             ---John Gardner

7/24/00 Bruce - Fanny, Emma, and Anne

Dear Dave et. al.,

I promise never to ask you to apologize for Crusades, for massacring Indians, or for abusing your slaves.  Have you ever read C.S. Lewis essay Danger of National Repentence? Repenting the deeds of one’s ancestors, whether evil or no, is an escape from personal repentance into that tempting region

"Where passions have the privelge to work
And never hear the sound of their own names"
(Wordsworth).

It is a sign of moral cowardice (I think) to run around apologizing for the sins of others, whilst never stopping to consider our own sins.  That, at least, is Lewis’ point.

Inasmuch as "lust" refers to "sexual appetite", there is always an element of lust in "eros". I certainly don’t think Fanny lusted (or even is as "physical" in her appetites) as most of the characters in MP, or any other novel.

I actually agree with you that Fanny is a loving character, and a good person. It’s not her character that I don’t like, it’s her personality.  She just isn’t very "attractive" to me, and, despite their moral flaws, I would prefer the company of the Crawfords.  Most of my moral and ethical objections to the heroes of MP are directed at Edmund, not (except by extension) at Fanny.

Unlike Cheryl, I actually like Emma (the character).  The reason:  Emma is smart, witty and, most important, energetic.  Her energy is usually misguided, but at least she’s up and about doing SOMETHING.  Fanny is a little too quiet, reserved, and lacking in the DESIRE to entertain others for my taste.  Compare Fanny to Anne.  Like Fanny, Anne is a quiet, introspective woman. But Anne is the "life", in her own quiet way, of any gathering she attends.  She’s playing music for others to dance, she’s quietly discussing literature, etc. etc.  I wonder if Austen meant Fanny to be a younger, less confident version of Anne.  Perhaps in 8 or 9 years, Fanny could mature into someone more like Anne.  But I doubt it.  Fanny is always self absorbed, while Anne is always caring for others.

7/25/00 Bruce - Addendum: Fanny, Emma, and Anne

To All,

I think I may have mispoken at the very end of my last post, and I’m sure the Fanny supporters will be attacking me for doing so just as the wicked, greedy Richard Coeur d’lion attacked the kindly, sainted Saladin the Great.  I actually think Fanny does care about others as much as the next person does, and more than many.  But she doesn’t know how to entertain other people, especially those she doesn’t know well.

She is shy and unsociable herself, so she doesn’t know how to make conversation, or how to dish out compliments, or how to play the piano.  She is USEFUL to others.  Lady Bertram can’t get along without her.  But she is unable to be FUN, or to help others have FUN.  The Crawfords, on the other hand, know how to make other people like them, and they have learned this in part because they lust (metaphorically) for admiration.  Wanting others to like you seems less attractive (to Puritan sensibilities) than having a quiet confidence in one’s own merits and virtues. However, it is an essential quality in a casual friend, and a quality Fanny lacks.

From the Meister: There is that word "Puritan" again! Well, you seem to use it correctly this time, and you are not the first to apply it to me; however, it is a word most inappropriate to apply to Fanny Price - or to Jane Austen. Fanny was quite sociable when given the chance. Fanny loved the excursion to Sotherton and she loved the Ball. It is true that she could not play the piano - so few can. The personality that you prefer for her and you describe in your last paragraph strikes me as superficial; but then, I am a Puritan - I suppose.

7/28/00 Cheryl - Fanny, Emma, and John Gardner

Dear Dave,

I suggest that Fanny's ailments are somatic (doctor's stopped using "psychosomatic" because even crazy people caught on to what that means) because they are produced mainly for Edmund's eyes, and therefore Fanny's benefit. (Such as personal  attention and horses.)  The youngest child (which Fanny is, for all practical purposes) needs to have something which sets her apart from her siblings and illness is a quite common device.   As for her abilities as a manipulator, her constant refrain that she is unable, or unqualified, or certain to fail at such-and-such is pretty much the definition of Passive/Aggressive.  The fact that others in the novel are better at it, or more open about it, is beside the point.  What isn't beside the point, is that despite all Fanny has to say for herself, her rival is vanquished, her tormenters exiled, and she becomes the Big Jell-O Sheriff of the household at Mansfield Park.  Who was it that said "The real man is in his actions, not his words."??

As for "Emma" adaptations, I guess you mean that if either Clueless or Emma was well-done, I'd still dislike Emma Woodhouse as much as ever.  This may be true, but what I've said about Paltrow's Emma in the past is that it illuminated something in the character that I hadn't seen before.  And that's really quite a compliment for a movie.  I've absolutely no doubt that my ability to like an Austen adaptation is inversely proportionate to my knowledge of the novel being adapted. I can tolerate Sense and Sensibility and Emma better than Pride and Prejudice or Mansfield Park simply because I can repeat the latter two nearly word-for-word.  I have my own cast, camera angles, etc. all up in my head.  Don't you ever play that game of "who would you cast as so-and-so?"  My husband and I do all the time, although not about Austen novels.

John Gardner creates a comforting fantasy for himself, but in truth the "objector" asks nothing more than that the believer and his God be held to the same standards of behavior the believer is so determined to apply to others. And as for this objector, that's not chaos in my heart, it's contempt ... I don't deny that one mode of action is better than another, I'm just usually too polite to say so.
Cheryl

From the Meister: Well you obviously don't like Fanny Price. To me, that means you cannot care much for the novel. What is your opinion of the novel? What is your overview of the novel and is author?

7/23/00 Dave Payton - [HITZ53@aol.com] Clueless and other

Dear Cheryl,

I am not one of those who feels that all film adaptations of JA's novels are insults or wastes of time. The fact of the matter is that most of them, like most movies or novels, are trifles and wastes of time. Let's just say that I'm a Julie Brigade Reservist.

You may feel that Fanny is a hypochondriac or manipulator, but I don't see it. The only people who seem to be worried about Fanny's health are other people, not Fanny. And ODJ certainly was at no loss to describe hypochondriacs as is evinced by Mr. Woodhouse or the characters in Sanditon. If you mean psychosomatic, that may be true. Fanny is a character who feels things deeply and rarely expresses what she feels to others. As far as manipulative, I do not know where you see it. Three quarters of the Bertram children are manipulative, one hundred percent of the Crawfords are manipulative and Mrs. Norris is manipulative. Fanny, as far as I can see, is not. Elizabeth Bennett is more manipulative than Fanny. Fanny is about as scheming as Jane Bennett, which is to say, not much.

I may have not made myself quite clear about the Emma film adaptations versus the novel. My point is that I feel that a film based on the novel should use the novel as a blueprint. If there is a character in the novel that is unlikable, then the same character in the film should be unlikable. An extreme example would be a new film version of Night of the Hunter with Jerry Lewis playing the preacher character as The Nutty Professor. It isn't the same thing as what was written. If one like as character in a film but does not like the character in the novel then one is looking at two different things. The bones may be of the same structure but the fleshing out is as different as Rosie O'Donnell and Oprah Winfrey.

As far as my dislike for Clueless and the Gwynth Paltrow version of Emma are concerned, I may have been too harsh. I am not particularly fond of either actress and that may have gotten in the way of my judgment. I am also tired of the portrayals of Southern California that Hollywood presents. I did like the Emma with Kate Beckinsale.

7/22/00 Julie Grassi - [banya@bigpond.com] Gobbledegook

To All,

I could not access the message board a few minutes ago, and was directed to a Yahoo! page, where I was informed that the server was 'experiencing some network issues'.

Oh, please, tell me it isn't so!

Really, just what is that piece of rubbish meant to tell anybody?

7/22/00 Ashton - Gobbledegook - one of those new Marsupials?

Dear Julie,

I have been receiving a lot of e-mail from some upset folks - folks upset with me. So, maybe this has something to do with bad Karma. This is day 934 of the web site, but I am determined to outlast Scheherazade (and to tell fewer tales than her); so, I hope the folks at Yahoo! can keep things running until then. It seems that I might at least meet that first goal (I am told that the second is unattainable).

7/20/00 Michelle - New Visitor

I'm new to you website and I just wanted to say that I love it. I stumbled across it while looking for some info on my favorite actress Jennifer Ehle. Her version of Pride and Prejudice is my favorite movie and of course the novel has been my favorite for years. It's great to find so many people who appreciate Jane Austen as well as I.

By the way I recently traveled to NY and got a chance to see Jennifer Ehle in her play in which she won a Tony for. She was amazing. She is such a talented actress. It is so hard to take your eyes of her when she is on stage. Of course that didn't keep me from staring at Stephen Dillane who played the male lead. Jennifer's character is much different than Lizzy and for someone who is so use to seeing her just play Lizzy it is quite a change. I suggest anyone who can get to NY to see the play to do so.

Also I agree with all the comments I've read regarding the latest Mansfield Park adaption. I couldn't believe what I was watching. I kept saying that's not Jane Austen.

Again, I love your site and I will be back from now on.
Michelle

7/20/00 The Meister - Welcome

Dear Michelle,

You are most welcome here and we look forward to your participation. I might add that you seem like our kind of person, but your experience in New York sets you apart - sets you above the rest of us.

7/20/00 Anonymous - [gaqjr@hotmail.com] Jane Austen's novel collections

I have 6 books set containing Jane Austen's novels, copyright 1892, published by Roberts Brothers in England Sense and Sensibility, Emma, Lady Susan, The Watsons, Letters etc. Mansfield Park, Pride and Prejudice, Northanger Abbey, and Persuasion.

If any one is interested in having this collection please feel free to e-mail me at gaqjr@hotmail.com.

7/19/00 Cheryl - More about Mansfield Park, the film

Reference: Ashton, 7/19/00

Dear Ashton,

You're right, the entire movie was crafted to show us the Evil European White Male.  Some humor may be derived from imagining the panic that must have set in when Rozema realized that a happy ending was impossible with Sir Thomas, the Rapist, left as the Villain.  So we have the badly done scene where Sir Thomas realizes the error of his ways (at Tom's bedside) and that piece of crapola scene in the drawing room that I mentioned before.  Suddenly Mary Crawford is the bad guy and all is right with the world. The fact that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to anyone who hasn't read the novel apparently was too trivial to bother about.

As to those scenes you refer to as "groping" I actually thought they fit in with the novel quite well, and that no one would have given them a second thought if it were Ang Lee directing.  The fact that Rozema was apparently willing use her sexual orientation to create a false aura of titillation about the movie shows her level of integrity. (Zero)  I may be overly cynical (I usually am) but I know I've never seen that many same sex couples at any of the other Jane Austen adaptations I've been to.   I think the film was deliberately misrepresented to some extent, in hopes of increasing the box office.  Didn't work worth a damn, though.

P.S.  I just saw Chicken Run and give it an unconditional recommendation.  It's very, very funny.  The Jane Austen tie in lies in the heroine "Ginger" who is voiced by Julia Sawalha who played Lydia Bennet in the Jennifer Ehle version of P&P.  (And apparently was also in AbFab??? Have never seen an episode.)
Cheryl

7/19/00 Julie Grassi [banya@bigpond.com] - I never would have supposed it.  But I live out of the world, and am often astonished at what I hear ...

Reference: Ashton, 7/19/00

Dear Cheryl and Ashton,

Sir Thomas and oral sex?  Miss Crawford feeling up Fanny Price?  Ye Gods.

I'm going to lie down for while in a darkened room, with a cold cloth on my forehead ...

I may get up later, for some gruel.
Julie

7/20/00 Julie Grassi - [banya@bigpond.com] Frittering away time on trivia, while ignoring the essentials...

Dear Cheryl,

... of life.  Ab Fab should be compulsory viewing for all. Julia S. plays Saffron, Eddie's (Jennifer Saunders) daughter.  Saunders, of course, is married to Adrian Edmondson (who sings the 'Wheels on Fire' song for Ab Fab), and Julia has turned up in an episode of 'Bottom', playing a barmaid. She also appeared in a series about young people running a school newspaper, which was very good.
Julie

P.S.:  From what I've read so far, any one line from any of the above actors would be worth whole reels of Rozema's work.
J.

7/20/00 Ashton - Julia Sawalha

Dear Cheryl,

I am not a big "AbFab" fan but I can say some things about it that you might find interesting. Julia Sawalha played a strait laced character, a kind of serious foil for the two outrageous, main characters. She played a similarly conservative character in another BBC comedy series after "AbFab". So, you see, she was cast against type as Lydia Bennet. I think she was perfect as Lydia. When that P&P was made, Sawalha was about ten years older than Jennifer Ehle (actually, she still may be).

Thank you for your support. I hope you can hold that thought - I am going to need a friend after I post my review - be afraid.