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2/1/02 Cheryl - Gracefully conceding on Mark Twain

Dear Ashton,

Since everyone is in disagreement with me on this issue, I suppose I should just concede gracefully. My thoughts about what was in his heart (not his head) come from reading his non-fiction. Of course not everything he says about himself is true, but he usually has a specific reason when he lies or covers something up.  (Such as leaving Virginia City after being fired and challenged to a duel for writing an editorial claiming that a soldier's fund currently popular was really set up to pay for a scheme of miscegenation.) I certainly wasn't trying to slur Twain's name.  I disagree to some extent on the epiphanies of both "Huckleberry Finn" and "Pudd'nhead Wilson", finding Twain's intentions to be more limited than yours. But then, we can't agree on Darcy's perfection either.

Since Linda hasn't read it, and it's been a year or two since I have, maybe when she returns home we can do a group read of "Pudd'nhead Wilson" if you're not too bored by re-reading it so quickly?  If nothing else, that book has supplied me with a quote I use nearly every day at some point or another:  "I wish I owned half of that dog ... so I could shoot my half." (Sometimes I substitute kid, car, grocery store clerk, etc.) Maybe later we can compare/contrast Mark Twain's description of the Blue Grotto (Innocents Abroad) with Dave Barry's.

Linda; actually the rape isn't "on camera" so to speak but Elrond's wife was captured, raped and tortured by orcs, no doubt a couple of thousand years before the LOTR takes place. As I recall it's mentioned in passing in the LOTR and the story is filled in a bit in one of the "Simarillion" type books.

Ashton; If you want the long explanation, I enjoy reading while I eat dinner and as light reading I picked up Ambrose Bierce's "Devil's Dictionary." I thought that was a rather funny poem (part of the definition of "Absent"), and you have been posting Ogden Nash occasionally this month.  You're getting paranoid, sir.
Cheryl

2/1/02 Ashton Dennis - Well, O.K., but this is too soon!

Dear Cheryl,

I think you were expressing the majority view of readers, and it seemed to me that Linda was gearing up to take your side. We haven't heard from Bruce, but he usually thinks the same as you. But then, I know you think the world of me, so I can see how you might make the mistake of thinking the world against you. Although, you are right about that "paranoid" thing, so maybe my intensity fooled you - well, except that I have always been paranoid.

Your idea of a group read is a good one, let's do it.

Actually, - heh, heh - I have to back off that fingernail thing because - heh, heh - I do seem to remember my wife saying something about fingernails - heh, heh. I could check with her now, but I am afraid of what she might say.

You know, I can bear up under your dising of Darcy and your talking smack on Fanny Price and Mark Twain, but the pain was really severe when you dumped on Nash's Verses for The Circus of the Animals. You really know how to hurt a guy - but then, you are a woman, aren't you.

2/2/02 Linda - Update

Dear Voices,

Cheryl, let's do that group read of Pudd'nhead Wilson! I will have to locate a copy of Puddin'head first.

We found Elrond's wife last night and it indicated she was tortured and had a poison wound, but unless we do not understand the words it did not mention a rape.  We will continue.  This dear friend gave me her PB copies of "The Hobbit" and "The Silmarillion" - she has a HB of the trilogy.  She said she is as obsessive about Tolkien as we are about Austen.  Poor soul.

I thoroughly enjoyed my first "Tea" - it was lovely.  We dined in the Linen and Lace Room. The decor was 'from the past' with Victorian furniture, hats, clothes, etc.

I have not forgotten that tonight I must finish watching the "Mark Twain" miniseries, and I threatened my friend that we must see at least one 'chick flick' while I am here - I suggested "Legally Blonde" which I have seen and really, really liked.  I will say no more  I would not wish to get the Meister all in uproar!

Happy Groundhog Day! 02-02-02
Later, Linda

2/3/02 Meister Ashton Dennis - Boy! You really are a wuss!

Dear Linda et. al.,

When I tried to imagine myself at your tea, I was reminded of what Mark Twain once said about reading a Jane-Austen novel,

".. I [would] feel like a barkeeper entering the kingdom of heaven. I know what his sensations would be and his private comments. He would not find the place to his taste, and he would probably say so."

Maybe that is why you didn't invite me.

I am astounded that you would mention chick flicks at this manly web site! - bite your tongue, I mean your typing finger. Those things are disgraceful, below worth mentioning, especially The Wedding Planner. That thing was so hackneyed, so cliched, so ridden with worn-out formulas, that I had to watch a second time to make sure it was as bad as I imagined the first time around. It ended the same way both times; that actor had to kiss Jennifer Lopez. - ? - I wonder how much they had to pay him to do that?

I think J Lo is being molded into the same category with Julia Roberts, Meg Ryan, and Sandra Bullock. Except that niche will soon be called the Jennifer-Lopez niche because she is more attractive than the other three put together. And, J Lo is a natural beauty, no surgery, no lip injections, etc. That reminds me, would you like to sign my petition? I am trying to arrange for the people who promote and perform those surgeries to be taken to Nuremberg, given a cursory trial for crimes against humanity, and then dissolved in acid.

If you must watch some stupid chick flick, then it might as well be Boys and Girls. That was filmed on the Berkeley Campus and in the environs of San Francisco, so you can see where I was born and where I went to school.
Sincerly,
Steamin' M.A.D.

2/3/02 Linda - A wuss speaks

Dear Ash,

I'll have you know there were several Gentlemen at the tea house with their Ladies. And they looked perfectly okay to me.

We did not get a chance to see the planned movie which you obviously haven't seen or you would know that it gives men a comeuppance.  I haven't seen The Wedding Planner but since you recommend it so highly I might, that and Boys and Girls too.

It took a couple of days to squeeze it in but I did watch Jane Austen in Manhattan! You were right about that one.  I did enjoy and get more out of it than my bored friend.  I really think I need to read Jane Austen's play again and study a little more on Richardson's book (if not read it in its entirety) to get the full import of the movie.  I suspect there were some things going on that are better understood by knowing both works better.

I saw Mark Twain - Part 2 and it was fascinating.  I had no idea what all he went through.  Because of the happy/rough times in his life, I want to keep that in mind when reading his books.  My friend and I both agreed on the word "arrogance" to describe his attitude, but we reserve judgement until we have read his works and studied his life more.  Ken Burns did a good job but we would like to have a second opinion, because we have some questions.  We realize you can't cover everything in even 4 hours.  What really astounded me was the amount of money he went through in his life time.  He is so revered that I really wish to 'see for myself'.  He accomplished quite a bit to have come from the woods of Missouri (or anywhere, for that matter).

There, will that do?
Linda

2/3/02 Ashton - This speaker wusses

Dear Linda,

Your adieu makes me understand that I was only obscure where I thought myself hilarious. Your use of "comeuppance" and "arrogant" only increase my doubts. You will do me a favor if you will re-read my post but with the clear understanding that I actually did watch The Wedding Planner twice which tells you more than what I actually said.

I knew you would like Jane Austen in Manhattan. Let me guess - tell me if this is right. The film begins with a view of the manuscript on a table at an auction, and you choked up a bit at that moment. Am I right? I suspect that neither of us should ever go to Winchester.

I guess that we all become our parents. Did it occur to you that Twain ended up exactly like his dad and older brother - complete failures in business?

Well, I feel relieved about one thing; I am very pleased to hear that there were some men in that tearoom dressed in sports-logo tee shirts (tea shirts?) and baseball caps (with the visors pulled around to the back).

2/4/02 Linda - Oh no! I do believe that I am the obscure one

Dear Ash,

I laughed myself silly when I read your post and my friend found it hilarious also, and even agreed with the "Nuremburg" statement.  I took you perfectly seriously about watching the movie twice.  At that point you sounded like MT as in "every time I read P&P".  But now I get that you were not really doing a total put down on the 'flicks'.  I was only afraid of injuring the manly status of the board by mentioning a 'comeuppanace'.  I doubt that you men rejoice when that happens.  But having known you for awhile, I am sure that you are all graciousness when proven wrong!  -)

Now I must relax before the Super Bowl comes on.  This household has many sports fans.  The Gentleman of the House said it would be a miracle if New England won, so I guess he agrees with you.  So we are gearing up with Southern fried chicken, the usual chips/dips, beer, and pecan pie.  Wish you were here.
Linda

From the Meister: I feel better. And, yes you are quite correct, I will be gracious should the occasion you mention ever arise. Graciousness and humility are rare qualities but are among the things I do very well.

2/5/02 Linda - I'm ready. And, a Mark Twain movie bio on today

Dear Voices,

I am home now, and did get to the library.  I found the Norton Critical Edition of Pudd'nhead Wilson which includes something called Those Extraordinary Twins.  I also picked up another one called Mark Twain's Best which has some short stories.

All you have to do is say when and how much.  At present I am almost finished with Fried Green Tomatoes - an astonishing Southern chronicle.

Sorry to be so late posting this, but I just noticed it this morning. TCM - Turner Classic Movies - has The Adventures of Mark Twain on today at 3:45 p.m. CENTRAL TIME.  Check your local listings for your area should you be able to receive TCM. This film was made in 1944 starring Fredric March and Alexis Smith.  It seems to be his biography.  It may be useful to get the gist of his life.

BTW, a stray thought on Mark Twain - he knew and mixed with lots of people in high society.  I would have never thought it!
Linda

2/5/02 Ashton - The Great American Novel

Dear Folks,

I mean, "Dear Linda": we will have to wait for signals from our leader in the great northwest because this group read was her idea. But it seems to me that you could get started right away and then go back over sections when you need to during discussions.

Cheryl also asked which book we thought might be "The Great American Novel". I will never try to answer that because my reading is too narrow and lacks depth. But, I can wonder about some things; like, what does the term mean? And, why do we never see the term "The Great English Novel" or "The Great Mexican Novel" etc., etc. Maybe it means the first novel that expresses the American consciousness in some definitive way. Twain's contemporaries, Henry James and Edith Wharton, seem not much different than Europeans - actually, didn't they both end up as Europeans? If you think about it, Fenimore Cooper and Hawthorne didn't write about citizens of the United States, they wrote about European settlers.

I guess that Steinbeck, Faulkner, and Sinclair Lewis are prime candidates for "Author of the Great American Novel"; I suppose some would like to include Fitzgerald on the list, but he wrote about people, situations, and attitudes that are as alien to me - and to most Americans - as anything in a Steven King novel. Ditto for Hemingway. As I say, I would never presume to vote, but my suspicion is that Mark Twain is the one, but not for the reason's that everyone else suggests. You must have heard those folks that get all up in a lather because, "He took the American language and turned it into literature!" What fool academic came up with that one? I mean those dialects are dead languages, especially that slave dialect. And, they were the dialects used by the least educated in the America of the last century. The dingbats that extol Ebonics make more sense than that - and they make no sense at all.

I like Twain because he expressed the American attitudes, which, to me, are vastly superior to European. He recognized that American civilization fell far short of our aspirations. Twain looked those failings in the face, and in an unfailing and unrelenting way. And, he was accurate - way accurate. He was not a great artist so he fails in the way that Jane Austen never did; Twain often became implausible. I suspect that the savants will not select Huckleberry Finn because the last fifth of the book, the portion just after Tom Sawyer enters the story, is implausible and even silly. (I can't imagine that I will be contradicted on this judgment.) Everything breaks down; the humor falls flat and the characterizations are inconsistent with the first, truly superb four-fifths of the novel; Jim degenerates into Step'n'Fetchit and Huck does as well. A great blemish on what might have been The Great American Novel.

However, Pudd'nhead Wilson may just fill the bill. I will be interested in what you and Cheryl have to say about that.

Of course, if Jane Austen's are to set the artistic standards for novels, including the Great American, then Twain falls out of the running - not even close. Then, I suppose, James, Wharton, Fitzgerald, and Hemingway become the prime candidates. I just hope that our intellectual leaders don't pick that idiot Norman Mailer.

2/6/02 Linda - The Great American Novel

I told you - I haven't written it yet! Seriously, don't you think that 'the Great American novel' would be one that MOST people would recognize - it would reach out and grab you. It would affect the entire nation in such a way as 9/11 or some great national event. We would just KNOW. Those you mentioned don't do a thing for me, and some of them you should not have mentioned!  I will reserve judgement on Mark Twain until I read some of his works. But, if he had written the G.A.N. we would know it, seems to me anyway.

Incidentally, here is another Mark-Twain link, The War Prayer by Mark Twain.

You make a good point on 'the Great (whoever) Novel'. I guess Shakespeare and Austen, excuse me, I meant to say Austen and Shakespeare were established when our nation was beginning. It strikes me that the attitude was, "Well you young upstarts, let us see what you can do! Where is your great literature?" I guess what appeals to me is Jane's character studies of my class of people. I don't care to read about the 'darker side'.  I know they are there and I want to correct their conditions. It's like we have to get our ownselves straightened out first then maybe we can be of use to them.  That is what I think anyway.
Linda

2/6/02 Cheryl - Read-along

Dear Voices,

Linda: I'm glad you made it home safe and sound.  I personally always need a day or two to recover from my vacations. How was the flying? My boss's sister said it took her 2 hours to get through security at SeaTac, though only an hour here in Spokane on the return trip. (It's a 3½ drive by the way. What a nut!) I think we may just drive to Colorado this October and save ourselves lots of aggravation, if not time.

Ashton: The specific dialects of Huck Finn may be dead, but hundreds of other American dialects live on.  What Twain did was legitimize "American." We became proud of our language's richness and its difference from "regular" English. Twain had the guts to create characters who spoke the way ordinary people do and weren't just comic relief.

But anyway I personally go with The Scarlett Letter as the Great American Novel. TSL as you point out concerns itself with transplanted Brits, but Hawthorne helps illuminate how the new continent turned these men and women into "Americans" for better and for worse. Still, if we were to extend "novel" to include "gonzo journalism" I would insist that The Innocents Abroad does more to illuminate the character of America and Americans than any other book ever written.

I've never run a group read before, but Pudd'nhead is more of a long short story or novella so I don't think we need to split it up too much.  I confess I'll be taken up with the Northwest Garden Show in Seattle Fri-Mon so if I may suggest simply we have it read by Tuesday.

I would like to introduce 3 very general areas to note:  Twain's use of "American" as opposed to "English"; Twain's fascination with technological wonders and scientific discovery of his era; and Twain's rather Shakespearean use of lowbrow humor in the middle of his serious works. No doubt other topics will occur to us as we read.

FYI: Pudd'nhead was published in serial form in Century Magazine 1893-4, and as a book in late 1894.  It began life as a farce about Siamese twins who could never agree on anything, but eventually morphed into the "standard edition" we have today.  The serialization was substantially different from the novel edition and what Linda has (Norton critical edition) includes both versions along with "corrections based on extant manuscripts."
Cheryl

2/7/02 Linda - More of the G.A.N. (Great American Novel) & etc

Dear Cheryl,

I am still recovering and I am not completely unpacked yet. The only flight problem was leaving Memphis - the mechanics had the cover on one engine up and were fixing something with the motor - that made us feel really safe, Ha! So we were about 20 minutes late leaving. I whizzed right through security - no going through my bags. Same in Newark. I attribute it to the fact that I used E-tickets, and E-boarding passes (not to mention that I look like a little old grey haired grandma!).  My daughter suggested that by using the "E" method, they don't bother you because it involves the use of credit cards which "terriorists" don't use. I don't know how true that is but it sounded good.  There were some passengers who went through a "body check" at the gate at a separate table and I couldn't figure out why.  The attendent checked my boarding pass and ID and sent me straight on to the plane.

I had early morning flights and the lines were very short. With my E-ticket I was waved to a side line to put my carry-on through the machine - zip, zap and I was done.  I expected lots of waiting at Newark since it is a NY airport.

The Scarlett Letter - Really? I saw the Demi Moore movie, and have the unread book on my shelf. The "darkness" of the story does not appeal to me personally. Now I will have to read it and "Innocents" too. I will get back to you on that score. I am now interested to see what Mr. Mark Twain has to say in his works. He is beginning to sound a lot like the extended family I grew up with.

I really believe that the G.A.N. should be as well written as Jane's novels and cover the content of all her novels combined and hopefully, exceed her content considering that we have learned some things since she wrote. How's that?

You are doing great a job of running the group read; I needed the 'direction' you pointed us to - I will make notes in those areas.

BTW we had one and a half inches of snow yesterday and the kids made a snowman (with Daddy's help). The schools shut down and Daddy came home early. It is unusual here so everything comes to a standstill.

Enjoy the Garden Show!
Linda

From the Meister: I was mystified at first, but then I realized what must have happened. You were confused and that caused confusion among the security geniuses. The simple truth is that "E-tickets" are valid only at Disney World. Obviously, the S.G.s got turned around somehow and thought that they were to place you on A Small World. Personally, I think that Hawthorne didn't know what he was writing about. His Scarlet Letter does not square with any contemporary account I know of. The attitudes he describes are far more appropriate to his own Victorian period than to any earlier time. That is my opinion.

2/2/02 Bree - Emmology

Dear M.A.D.,

I fear I must be quite a bit older than you! (Or than anybody in the whole world about now!) I thought Mark Strong might be about 28-31 years of age, notwithstanding his receding hairline. Jeremy Northam?  Well, early early 30's.  Good Lord, I have a son who is 31!  So good old John Carson didn't look that old to me!  Sigh.  Probably in another year or two, even Mr. Woodhouse (whose first name was Henry) will start to look young!

I am re-reading Emma yet again, and agree totally with your opinion of the erroneous focus of the narration in Emma-'96.

Emma is barely 21 (which might, just might, account for the romantic vision of Mr. Knightley quoted in your passage in "what we did for Emma").  But did she have a hard head?  When she is talking Harriet out of marrying Robert Martin, she mentions his property and assets being "all afloat" in building up his farm.  She certainly knew the financial ins and outs of Highbury youths!  How many 21-year-olds today understand basic economy and investing?  And she also ran her father's house like clockwork.  Of course, there were scads of servants, but you have to know how to manage them.

All told, I thought Kate Beckensale was the best Emma because she is definitely the prettiest (and Emma was supposed to be a real dish), her face and voice didn't get tiresome, and she treated her father the way I imagined Emma would.  Gwynneth is a charmer, but she is not a true Brit, and something was missing.

I have to say that Emma-'95 was the film most faithful to the original novel as films go. Emma-'72, being a BBC production, probably had the edge over all of them.  But how MUCH of Doran Godwin can you take at one viewing?  One positive note, let's just be glad that it didn't enter Patricia Rozema's head to do Emma - God knows what sort of monstress she would have created!!!

2/3/02 Ashton - numerology

Dear Bree,

I looked these things up on the Internet. Northam was born in 1961 and Carson in 1927. So they were, respectively, 35 and 45 when they portrayed Knightley. We know that Knightley was 16 years older than Emma and she was about 20. So, Northam was almost exactly the right age and Carson was not.

I could not find Strong's age, but he studied law in Germany and England before turning to acting, and he has a credit for an adult role in 1987. I will let you do your own math, but I think he must have been the right age as well.

Since I could not find Strong's age, I felt I owed you something. I found that Julia Sawalha was born in 1968, so she was 27 when she played the 15 year-old Lydia Bennet in P&P-'95; Julia was two years older than Jennifer Ehle.

2/7/02 Linda - Emma - the movie

Dear Bree,

I am sorry it took me so long to put in my two pence on Emma, but here 'tis, referring mainly to your post of 2/2/02.

Maybe it is because we are Grandmothers that we mostly agree. [My daughter is turing 30 next month, sshh!]  I voted for Mark Strong, because he was the right age and I liked his acting. Northam looked too young for the part, even though he was the right age.  Carson just looked too old.  Let me quickly add that I was all set to vote for Paul Rudd until I reviewed the one with Mark Strong.

I preferred Kate Beckinsdale also. Gwyneth and Doran were too skinny and the clothes they wore did not help any at all. I notice such things. Such distractions reduce my enjoyment of the movie.

Also, I need to read the novel again to be able to determine the accuracy of the movie as I am sure they take liberties. And I see that we agree on Patricia Rozema also.
Linda

2/4/02 Linda - Whatta game!

Dear Voices,

I was hootin' and hollerin' all the way to the end.  I cheered for the underdog and we won!

Now I'm off to get a little sleep because I have an early plane to catch.  'See' you at home.
Linda

2/4/02 Spanky - [luvmakr84@hotmail.com] love

Dear Voices,

I just like to say that I am doing a report on her and she is fa-bu-lous.

2/6/02 Michael N. Field - [http://www.westernreview.com/] First impression

I am taking my first literature course since 1969, Major British Writers, at my local community college in Central California. Jane Austen is on the reading list, of course. All I can say is that after reading only the lead, I was, as an adult male person, extraordinarily flattered. I may have more to say later.

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