9-11
The Voices of Men in Praise
Of Jane Austen
Messages c.
March 1, 2002
9-11
Dear Mashton,
I was not being "knind", just saying the truth. I did enjoy reading your selected female commentaries about JA, though they were difficult to stomach. It made me wonder about their cognitive skills. Take Maria Edgeworth (I assume it's "Mariah"?). Is that ALL she got out of the novel? It reminds me of this joke where a little boy comes home after his first day at school. His mother asks what happened at school. His answer: "Nothin'. Some woman wanted to know how to spell cat, so I told her."
Then there's the portrait of Mme. de Stael. Doesn't it put you in mind of the way Harriet was posed for her "likeness" in Emma-96? Good grief! Can't a person get her portrait done without a freaking lyre? Charlotte's comments weren't all unfamiliar to me. I don't see how she could read S&S, for instance, and all that Marianne went through over Willoughby, and still say there was no PASSION? And Mary Ann ... well ... not all heroes in books can be nearsighted weavers, can they? I did not have the gumption to read the men's comments yet, but look forward to their being much more bearable.
I am honored that you ask if I might lead a Sanditon discussion in future - I would at least be willing to throw a few comments in to get the ball rolling, and see where it went. I must get it and re-read it with time and thought. Also, I would absolutely love to join a Lady Susan discussion. I always wondered how a person who lived Jane's quiet life knew so much about vicious, selfish women and their sexual intrigues and bad motherhood. Lady Susan is one of Jane's most unforgettable characters. Her daughter Frederika (ghastly name) puts me in mind of Fanny Price. She has a similar combination of upright character and timidity, and somehow knows when to take action. Maybe later in the year can we pick this story apart?
Oh - could you relate when you played with Catherine Morland? And please don't be po'd if I praise Linda!
Dear Breetle,
Maria Edgeworth is an interesting case. I think that she had become Jane Austen's favorite author just before our Lady had begun to publish herself. There was another connection; Jane Austen's Aunt had been arrested for shoplifting in Bath when the Austen sisters were young adults and before Jane had published. The theft was of sufficient value to require that the Aunt be imprisoned until her trial six months hence. (Jane Austen's mother kindly offered her daughters for company to the Aunt during this wait - can you imagine!) Had the woman been convicted, she would have been sent to Australia. Anyway, the woman was rich and well connected so many important character witnesses appeared for her and she was acquitted. One of those character witnesses was Maria Edgeworth's father, a wealthy Anglo-Irish landowner. Perhaps this is the reason that Jane Austen took the audacious step, for her, of sending her favorite author a pre-publication copy of Emma.
I have made other comments on Edgeworth and her writing in another place. I will only say here that the first impression is that she was a better writer than Jane Austen; although, by the time you finish one of her novels, you understand why it is that Jane Austen is the best known novelist of that time. Incidentally, Jane Austen's admiration for Edgeworth was shared, apparently, by her brother, Henry Austen.
I love that portrait of de Stael because it makes her look fat and I am mad at her. I shouldn't be because she stood up to Napoleon and was exiled for her courage. She probably wasn't fat either because she slept around with only the best quality of men, so she must have been attractive. That pose and the pose you mention in Emma-96 might be more closely related than we think at first. Here is a posting that illustrates an interesting convention for posing that was in vogue in those days (see the section on Lady Hamilton). Maybe we have to give the researchers of Emma-96 a gold star. What do you think?
If you would rather lead us on Lady Susan than on Sanditon, that is fine with me, preferable I should say. The story I have heard is this. The second wife of Jane Austen's oldest brother was the former Mary Lloyd. A sister, Martha Lloyd, was the fourth woman who lived with Jane, Cassandra, and Mama Austen at Chawton. (Later, at age 60, Martha would marry for the first time to Jane's brother, Sir Francis Austen.) Some believe that Lady Susan was based upon a Grandmother or Aunt or something in the Lloyd family. That would explain why this novella was not published until 50 years after the death of Jane Austen. Even then the decision created controversy among our Lady's surviving - now dottering - nieces and nephews.
Don't get me started on the summer of '49 and Pat Rose again - I can go on and on about that and you don't want to hear it.
You must not know much about the NFL and the effect there of free-agency. I was not angry when you praised Linda; rather, I was apprehensive. Linda contributes too much around here to allow her to understand how valuable she is. Do you really want her to wonder if she might get more money and recognition elsewhere? Have a care!
Dear Bashed-on, Mashed-on,
What a surprising history behind the "little bit of ivory". JA had fascinating connections. How she constructed the whole scenario of intrigues of Lady Susan and her family still leave me awestruck.
I don't think the producers of Emma-96 should have messed around with the posing of Harriet. JA was very specific about her being outdoors with a shawl around her shoulders, and with a book, was she not? I say again, especially regarding JA, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I confess I don't know ANYTHING about the NFL, except that the Patriots won the Superbowl this year, and since New England is my spiritual home, I was glad, yes glad! But my interests lie more with the NBA, so I did not understand your reference, although free-agency is also rampant in the NBA.
I just read your post regarding Catherine Morland. That experience really reminded me of the Wonder Years - remember Winnie Cooper?
I really liked Northanger Abbey in many ways, but the film was disturbing. Whoever played Catherine was one of the weirdest looking females I have ever seen. It was hard to relate to her in the way I could to Jennifer Ehle, Kate Beckinsale, even the maligned Emma Thompson. I wish it could be re-done - who should play Catherine? Do I hear suggestions???
Dear Cheryl and Ashton,
Cheryl: You have said some mighty interesting things about the North and South. My lack of attention to the Civil War is only exceeded by my gross ignorance. But since I am a work in progress, I am learning. You have made me think and question. I do know that I don't know the real causes of the war. You present an interesting scenario. After you stripped the 'verbal diarrhea' (I love your colorful phrases) to reveal the lost election—I realized yet another reason for the war. You said it was a great moral struggle—I assume you meant over slavery. You have hit on the heart of the matter as every other reason stems from the slavery question. I will now do my reading with my eyes open.
Your 'incredibly depressing' remarks are indeed, but who can refute them. There are always those elements around, but as Ash stated all the people are not like that. If I have the straight of it, it seems that I have heard stories about the 'slave labor' of the manufacturing plants up North (or wherever) using men, women, and children. That story is a vague memory lurking in the back of my mind; I don't remember the details.
Here is how I am progressing with my life. Funny how we just happen to dig into Pudd'nhead Wilson and I stumbled onto Fried Green Tomatoes and Mary Chesnut. First, I recently saw FGT again (first saw it 8 years ago) and that led me to read the book. You said: "I found the modern part of the story completely incoherent." I did not have any trouble relating to the modern ladies because I am (or rather was) one of them. At the end of the book Evelyn blossomed. It is about regaining self esteem, respect, dignity, and equality as a human being. For instance, when Evelyn's friend said the following to her I literally burst into tears: "You know, what we really need instead of this baloney, is an assertiveness training class for Southern women. But that's a contradiction in terms, isn't it? Specially you, sweetheart, you're living in the dark ages." These words are not in the book, but Fannie Flagg did the screenplay so they are still her words. And truer words were never spoken, I am sorry to say.
As for Mary Chesnut, I bought the book but have only read a piece here and there. I do think you may be right Cheryl. It seems that a lot of carrying on happened in the 'aristocracy'. It should prove interesting. These discoveries are making quite an impact on me personally. I knew it was there but did not pay much attention.
Now as for Mark Twain, I read several of his 'stories' in my other library book. He was a social commentator mixed in with all that carryin' on.! He stepped on the toes of the church members and took a shot at the scientists for starters. My five year old granddaughter actually liked the one about the "good little boy". I forgot to ask her if she understood it. I do believe there is more to MT than meets the eye. I had no idea. It does help to understand the times to get the full import of his 'message'.
Ash: I really do like your 'love story' between Jane and Mark. I do believe you are changing your mind about him. Thank you and Cheryl for your comments; I really need to read Pudd'nhead Wilson again to 'get the message'.
BTW I taped and viewed the beginning of Madame Bovary the 1944 version
with Jennifer Jones the other day and rather liked it. So much so I was inspired
to pull out my 25-cent library sale copy to compare for accuracy. Right next to
the MB book was The Autocrat of the Breakfast Table by Oliver Wendell
Holmes which I picked up to glance at. Much to my horror I noticed that that O.
W. Holmes was the Father of THE Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. But as it turned
out I think it may prove to be very interesting as a contemporary of Mark Twain.
In the Introduction I found this statement: "...The Autocrat is more
exactly a series of personal essays presented as conversations." From MT
'stories' I begin to see the same trend - personal essays presented as
'stories'.
Linda
Dear Linda
I too am a work in progress, so you definitely shouldn't take my word on this stuff. There is a book I'm going to recommend as soon as I can figure out what it is (why isn't anything on the shelf when you look for it?) which a survey of pre-war rhetoric. Vile stuff from both sides. I'm reminded of the characters from Twain's trip to the Sandwich Islands (in "Roughing It") in which two men eventually just start making up pre-war atrocities. It's funnier than it sounds, but seems perfectly true to the mood of the times. The "great moral struggle" is freedom and equality for the whole planet, of which our civil war is just a small part.
The rich on both sides of the struggle deserve little admiration. In the north, men paid a $300 tax and hired someone else to take their place if they didn't want to fight. Many scoundrels made a good living (for a while) agreeing to be a replacement, then deserting. Eventually the Union army came up with a way to squash it. Conditions in northern factories and inner cities is exactly why it was so vitally important to northern politicians for the West to be opened. With thousands of immigrants arriving every day, rampant alcolholism, poverty, and the sort of diseases you get when you stuff millions of people into a few square miles the politicians weren't giving away free land out of altruism. None the less, a Scotsman like Andrew Carnegie could arrive a pauper and become a rich man, while an African could learn to get along and live as a slave for the rest of his life.
Actually I meant that the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes presented the
modern parts of the story incoherently. I'm sure they are better tied
together in the book. I have more to say about southern writers but have to
go to work.
Cheryl
Dear Cheryl,
How about under my bed? I have filled up 3 small bookshelves, spilled over onto one shelf of my son-in-law's bookcase, and now have 6 slide-in boxes under my bed! Last week I finally got my inventory list of books finished (just over 200), so that I don't go out and buy the same one twice.
You said:
'The "great moral struggle" is freedom and equality for the
whole planet, of which our civil war is just a small part.'
You are very
wise; I have never heard that put into words before, but that is 'what it's all
about!' That is what 'the Kingdom' IS; you know, the one's that everyone
says 'is coming'!
You also said:
'Actually I meant that the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes
presented the modern parts of the story incoherently. I'm sure they are better
tied together in the book. I have more to say about southern writers but have to
go to work.'
Yes, now I see what you mean. And it is
incoherent. Another reason to read the book. Several things were cleared
up. "Southern writers?" - can't say that I have gone out of my way to read
any. I suppose they never struck my fancy. I guess I should try
one. I will await your recommendations or not, and take your time because I
already have a couple of hundred other books lined up to read.
My opinion of PWT, Southern or
otherwise, having gone to school with some, is that they are simply
uneducated. They can be taught, but I suggest you start at an early age.
The older ones are 'set in their ways'. I am sorry to say the school
systems fail in this area once again. I remember in Heidi the
teacher giving instructions to Heidi about combing her hair and washing her
face, or somesuch. The bottom line is that there is room for improvement in
all of us.
Linda
Dear Linda,
The book I was trying to find is called Voices of The Storm, 1820-1861 by Stephen B. Oates. He also wrote The Approaching Fury and The Whirlwind of War. His books are listed as non-fiction, but I believe he ties things together with fiction, or at least extrapolation. I haven't read through any of the books, just bits and pieces.
I will do my usual plug for Flannery O'Connor Southern Gothic author extraordinaire. I'm not Catholic, I don't like Southern religious crazies and, I don't read religious fiction at all. But FO'C was such a technically superb writer that she could make even a story about a woman who gets a vision from god while hosing off the hogs enjoyable. She was also quite a fascinating woman who pretty much set her own terms through sheer willpower and talent. She was actually a very profound thinker about religion and the nature of belief and a very strange mixture of liberal arts college grad and bluntly unreconstructed Catholic. She also had a very, very wicked sense of humor and talks delightedly about getting big laughs during her reading of A Good Man Is Hard To Find which (believe me) wouldn't strike most of us as a particularly humorous story. If you ever find her collected letters "The Habit of Being" for cheap at the library sale, snatch it up as it is an absolute gem, whether you read any of her stories or not.
I'm also going to put in a shameless shill for the new album Blue
Idol by the Irish group Altan. They do traditional Irish music, not
the sort of new age "celtic" stuff that all sounds alike. (Although this album
contains an untraditional saxaphone ... but then they use a didgereedoo on
another album.) This is their best work to date, with more singing than
any of their other albums, and they're nice enough to provide translations for
the gaelic songs. It's also better because, if there were a criticism to
make of the group, it's their tendency to play too hard and fast maybe to show
off their fiddling skills...on this cd they slow down and let you enjoy the
music. It's hard to pick a highlight Cuach mo Lon Dubh
Bui (sorry, doesn't translate) and Daily Growing stand out.
Cheryl
Dear Ashton,
Are you protesting at my characterization of hooligans, or that they pick on their own kind? Young men always have and always will enjoy getting together, getting drunk, and causing mischief. Especially mischief against those who have no recourse to the law. Slaves, freed slaves, immigrants, the mentally ill and the retarded being traditional victims.
Be that as it may, the term "poor white trash" isn't defined by skin color or annual income. PWT is defined by:
Poor White Trashism isn't genetic, it's a learned behavior and a PWT child raised by decent human beings will grow up to become a useful citizen. For those of us who grew up in PWT households, we can never be cured, we are forever "recovering." Any morning we could find an Elvis shrine in our living room, and our front yard filled with rusted out cars. Or a bumper sticker that says "You have your X and I have mine" (complete with confederate battle flag.)
P.S.: Ashton: you are hereby assigned one weekend gun/survival show and one biker rally that includes a tattoo contest (biggest, most artistic, most "Hog" for example) before you can make anymore "white underclass" comments. You are excused from purchasing any weapons, or volunteering to judge the "ugliest biker bitch" contest, unless of course, you really want to.
Cheryl
Dear Cheryl
You describe what I would call "red-neck culture", PWT might be something else entirely. In any case, PWT is a southern term I think, but I was raised in northern California. I wonder if poverty isn't a state of mind rather than a culture—a psychological state rather than an acculturated philosophy. The truly impoverished don't fit in anywhere, not at Harvard and not at a wet tee-shirt contest. But we do try don't we—at both places.
All this reminds me of the early life of Mary Wollstonecraft. A few have rattled my e-cage for opening discussion of MW at this site; I do that, primarily, to show a stark contrast of Jane Austen's situation with some others of her time. A secondary reason is that I identify with Wollstonecraft so strongly. I am an uncomplicated heterosexual, but I identify with her in every other way—absolutely every other way. (You must understand, by now, that I am not talking about her radical feminism.) But, it's Jane Austen's world I aspire to, even though I never could have fit in there. (Your phrase, "we are forever 'recovering' ", struck a chord with me.)
You will be amused to learn that I recently attended a Hell's Angel funeral after my brother-in-law's step-son died in a motorcycle accident. There are missionary cyclists that ride with them; they act as missionaries and as liaison with police and probation officers. They also conduct services. This service was very long and was impressive in many ways, I was never bored. There was a lot of sincere-sounding Christian testimony with a good deal of audience participation. I was skeptical so I sat there thinking that a number of the parole officers must have been in attendance to inspire such an outpouring. But the really weird thing was how comfortable I felt, more comfortable than in decades. Of course, I didn't talk to anyone; but, I never talk to anyone in a University lecture hall either.
Dear Meister,
The 'surprise link' for this month - I will let you know when that post goes into the archives at the Republic of Pemberley because it will get a new URL at that time. You can update your link then. I really like that one.
the johnnyman humor inspired by jane austen from a woman's perspective
obviously pride and prejudice elizabeth bennet are his literary inspiration and
a friend asked me if he kept a copy of the book in his pocket all the time and
"no" he has many other books as well such as "moby dick" of all things but his
favorite is faulkner. for those interested...
adele
Dear Maston,
You have given me a lot to think about! Let's get Knightley out of the way first. I think maybe JA was reflecting the social values of her time and background in that passage, and never dreaming that almost 200 years later people would be dissecting her meanings, did not worry about clarifying whether Miss Bates could be insulted freely if she were rich. (What a terrifying sentence! And I teach ENGLISH!) Probably she was simply telling Emma to "pick on someone your own size". But in these times, "consequence" is measured somewhat differently. All of this is arguable.
I think it is so wonderful that you set up a website from reading a manual, but I know there are people who can do that. [Others have to attend classes.] You have read my opinions on the R of P, so you can imagine how great this site is for me. It is a true Republic! Except we didn't vote for you ... but we can chose whether to come or go AND say what we want without a stick being poked in our ear. Actually, I wish I had more time to hang out and read everything from everyone, but my schedule makes it difficult - lately I have only been on line every couple of days. But you have written extremely perceptive, well thought out opinions and summaries on the films and the novels, and made me see them in different ways. I usually re-read JA by just devouring every word. It is a great thing to hear different opinions on all these things.
I suspect some men don't want to admit they are hooked on Jane Austen, although in general men are getting more relaxed about that stuff. Possibly they don't know where to look to find this site - I found it by accident when I found another Jane Austen website I used to visit had virtually disappeared. This one is lots better! And of course, we must face the fact that many men are looking for websites about Survivor, and buying SUV's, so they will pass us by.
I wondered, have you read Sanditon, the novel JA began and "another lady" finished? It has been quite a while since I read it, so I think I should re-read before trying to discuss it.
Linda was nice enough to e-mail me re various JA stuff, and this is a great thing about this website. So I'm off to reply. Shall I forgive Mr. Knightley?
Dear Breets,
Thank you for your knind words - I mean kind words. However, I must admonish you to never praise Linda, you will only make her more difficult for the rest of us to manage.
It is true, none of the major search engines refer to this site. Actually, something can be done to improve that situation and I have been debating with myself for at least a year now whether or not to take that step.
The fact is that many men have loved Jane Austen's novels since her own time. It is only very recently that some confusion has developed over that fact. Here is a section of the Table of Contents that will link you to what famous men have said about our Lady in the last two hundred years. To establish her gender neutrality, in a kind of perverse way, I also complile things that some women should not have said about Jane Austen.
I have read Jane Austen's Sanditon as well her Juvenilia, The Watsons, and Lady Susan. These things, as well as her letters have been underrepresented in the discussions at this site. I am afraid that I might never get around to sequels and completions written by other authors. Here is that section of our Index dealing with Sanditon:
Not much, I am afraid. If you would find the time—maybe this summer—to lead a more comprehensive discussion, that would be most welcome.
Dear Bree,
It has been a while since I have read Emma but I could not bear to think ill of him. That is what is so fascinating about Jane - always something new to discover. Enjoy!
Don't tell the the Meister but I also agree with a lot of what he writes.
Linda
Dear Linda,
We will let the good Mr. Knightley off the hook! I know he meant well. As Miss Bates always says, "so very obliging!" I think Emma's lucky ...
Dear Ashton,
I'm doing research on Malthus and Godwin for an animated film I'm producing,
and came across your wonderful
essay. I was amazed to find it on a website about Jane Austen, but I suppose
that's as good a place as any for it. Thanks!
—Nina Paley
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