The Voices of Men in Praise
Of Jane Austen
Messages c. March 18, 2002


9-11          

Dear Voices,

This is an exchange at RoP during the Library group's read of Belinda; this is concerning Edgeworth's opinion of Jane Austen. It does shed some light on the subject.

LindyS asks:

"From the very beginning of Belinda, I was struck by how raw and violent the arguments among the characters are, compared with what I am accustomed to from JA's novels. In fact, everything seems to be set on "high" in this novel. For instances, Lady Delacour burst into the room,"attempted to snatch" and then "absolutely seized" Belinda's letters, and Belinda puts up at least a little physical resistance. And the arguments between Lord and Lady Delacour are bitter fights, the emotion between them real hatred. Similarly, Marriott, the maid who appears to be blackmailing her mistress, ranges from bad humour to actual rage. Plus we've had tales of a duel and a kidnapping so far... will the characters be rolling on the floor throwing punches by Chapter 10?"

"Does anyone know if this is because the more aristocratic characters are more "dissipated" or free of conventional social constraints than JA's less prominent characters, or if Edgeworth was reflecting different literary influences?"

DeeMac's reply:

"Edgeworth appears much more an eighteenth century novelist than a nineteenth century one—to me anyway. The raucous and slapstick scenes which she feels it necessary to include in Belinda would not be out of place in the novels of Smollett or Fielding. But as you say, they jar readers used to the poise and restraint of Austen's prose. Initially I found it hard to believe that the two authors were writing in the same period."

"Maria Edgeworth seems to believe that novels have to gallop from one major set-piece to the next. In true eighteenth century style, her characters almost explode off the page. Austen's carefully drawn reflections of the commonplace are beyond her comprehension. Hence Edgeworth's bemused reaction to [Jane Austen's] Emma:

Knowing the "times" of that era sure helps to understand where they are coming from!  That may be why Edgeworth said what she said.
Linda

Dear Linda,

Well, one difference is that Edgeworth's Belinda is set in London and Jane Austen's novels are set in the countryside. Perhaps we might have suspected the level of civility to be greater in town - mm-mm, maybe not - I just remembered the Crawfords.

The thing I noticed about Belinda is that Edgeworth herself fails our present-day standards on racial and ethnic sensitivity; one never senses that about Jane Austen. It would be interesting to know how African-Americans or Jews react to Edgeworth.

Incidentally, the "duel" mentioned in your excerpt is probably the one between Lady Delacour and one of her rivals - the women were dressed in drag at the time. The fight was instigated by an unpleasant third character, Harriet Freke. Some folks believe that Freke is Edgeworth's portrait of Mary Wollstonecraft.

There is little doubt that Edgeworth had become Jane Austen's favorite author just before our Lady began her own publication. I can see why, I think that the woman wrote very well, at about the level of a Bronte I think. But, like the Brontes, in my opinion, the effort was to write a great page at the expense of writing a great novel. All those women were too little concerned with nature and probability to write a great novel at the level of Jane Austen's.

Well, a new quarter begins soon, and your posting could not have come at a better time. It seems to fit in with a theme I am planning for the Spring. I will start things off in the first week of April with a long posting on William Godwin's fine novel Caleb Williams (1794). That novel is set in the same countryside portrayed by Jane Austen, and does present a very different view of that society. That will lead - I hope, I hope - to a discussion of the gothic novel as political subversion and to a discussion of the possibility that our Lady's Northanger Abbey might have contained a political message, something I would have thought impossible until I read Caleb.

Dear Ashton,

You said:

"That novel is set in the same countryside portrayed by Jane Austen, and does present a very different view of that society. That will lead - I hope, I hope - to a discussion of the gothic novel as political subversion and to a discussion of the possibility that our Lady's Northanger Abbey might have contained a political message, something I would have thought impossible until I read Caleb."

I knew it, I just knew it - there is more to Jane Austen than meets the eye.  You are probably on to something.  IMHO she came, she saw, and she improved.  She had her own sensible vision of what a novel should be - and she wrote them.  I found the first six chapters of Volume 1 of Caleb Williams online here so I can do some reading when I catch a moment.

I will say it again - she did not live in a cloister!  I remember living in the Louisiana backwoods in the 1950s and realized even then that we were behind NYC by about 6 months to a year in catching on to the latest fads, etc.; but they did eventually arrive.  You, dear heart, may have some serious backtracking to do with Julie Grassi who tried to tell you about Northanger Abbey.  All this discovery sure is exciting though isn't it?
Linda

Dear Ashton,

I did get those six chapters read of Caleb.  Now I am hooked.

In Godwin's brief preface I could not help but reflect on the events of 9/11 and the sense of nationalism we all felt.  What actually prompted this was Godwin's stated purpose "...a general review of the modes of domestic and unrecorded despotism, by which man becomes the destroyer of man."  This brought to the forefront of my mind all the references lately found about the state of mind with the American and French revolutionaries, as well as the events in the rest of the world of that day.  I only heard mention of Thomas Paine and his Common Sense and those irate men dumping all that tea in Boston Harbor. Common Sense itself was not read, and only a minimum of reasons were told to us about the causes of the unrest. Now I begin to see the full extent of the rising of the revolutionary storms, the class struggles, etc.

These sentences struck my fancy when Mr. Clare said in praise of Mr. Falkland's poetry: "Do not forget however, that the Muse was not given to add refinements to idleness, but for the highest and most invaluable purposes.  Act up to the magnitude of your destiny."  The Meister seems to have already applied them to our benefit.

I thought this was worth repeating also.  When Mr. Falkland was trying to make peace with the tyrant Mr. Tyrrel, Falkland said: "In the society of men we must have something to endure, as well as to enjoy.  No man must think that the world was made for him.  Let us take things as we find them; and accommodate ourselves as we can to unavoidable circumstances."

In light of that, my admonition is - let us strive to be something to enjoy, not something to be endured.  End of today's sermon.

Now, I shall have to get my hands on the entire book to find out what happens.  I am amazed at the quantity and quality of thought in those days.  As I said once somewhere, the world only started in the 1940s; imagine my surprise when I discovered that it had been around for millenniums!
Linda

Dear Linda,

Your posting is superb - excellent. Thank you.

Yes, I felt all those things as well at that stage of the novel. I can tell you that these feelings and thoughts of yours will compound as you get further in, and they will diversify in ways you cannot now imagine. I am astounded by the novel because, as you know, I have not been kind to Godwin on these web pages. I now consider that Caleb is the best thing that I have read from Jane Austen's generation. That may not be saying much given my limited experience. Godwin was no Jane Austen, but he was very good indeed - excellent in fact. The only other things from that century, that I have enjoyed as much, came from the pens of Defoe and Fielding. Of course, more literate persons can probably point to other things.

Do you see differences in the way that Godwin and then Jane Austen described that same country society?

Let me suggest, though, that you keep in mind that Godwin evolved from a Dissenting Clergyman into England's most famous atheist by the time he wrote Caleb. Neither state would have been kindly regarded by Jane Austen. Also, Caleb was published in 1794; try to keep that date in the perspective of what was happening in England vis-à-vis France. I say that because Godwin was a leading defender of the French Revolution in Jane Austen's time. I believe that we must remember these things if we are to make a reasonable guess at Jane Austen's response.

Finally, I have an interesting proposal for you. Place Mr. Clare's admonition in his "praise of Mr. Falkland's poetry..." alongside George Eliot's criticism of Jane Austen. Personally, I disagree with Mr. Clare (I mean William Godwin) and George Eliot on this, and throw in with Jane Austen (I think).

Dear Dennis,

Great essays, I've read about 1/2 and find the presentation of the male POV well organized, provocative and generally 'nicely put'.
Thanks,
Cathy Wong

Dear Cathy,

You are very kind and your words are encouraging. Thank You.

Dear M.A.D.,

I sense your seething dislike of Charlotte (lottie) and Rozema.  Sorry Malkovich too skinny for Rochester.  I liked George C. Scott.  Catherine Deneuve is indeed sublime, but too blonde, too French, for my idea of Lady Susan (tho maybe not for other people's idea).  Regardless of her age, her type of coldness is not the same as Lady Susan's.  We need someone dark, voluptuous, with beautiful eyes.  Somewhere, somehow, there is someone we haven't thought of.  Don't forget we also have to cast Frederika, the sister-in-law, all the rest who appear only as accounts in letters, but are very real nevertheless.  I still say hand the whole ball of wax over to Sue Birtwhistle.  She will search every corner of England for the right person.

Non sequitur - have you read any of the books by "Elizabeth", the Baroness von Arnim?  The movie Enchanted April was based on one of them.  If they are familiar to you, we've got to start thinking of getting them all filmed.

... Catherine Zeta-Jones!

Preparing for her role as Lady Susan.

Yes! of course, good choice. Thank you so much.

Dear Alashton,

No, no Catherine Zeta Jones.  Do not put words in my mouth, unless they be spoken by Ms. Austen!  I want a Brit, do you hear me, an undiscovered Brit who will make Lady Susan so real that the viewer will feel he/she is peering in through an uncurtained window!  [Well, at least it is obvious that the passions are not perfectly unknown to me!]

Debris,

Your posting reminded me of an interview of Catherine Zeta-Jones. I will give you a hint: if we un-hyphenate her name, we would know her as Catherine Jones. Anyway, she was describing her first Academy Awards Ceremony after release of her Zorro. She was shocked (and amused) when a Spanish-language reporter came up to her and started asking her questions in Spanish. You see, Catherine was born and raised in Wales - she is a Brit.

Here is a biography I found at the Rolling Stones web site.

"A native of Wales, Catherine Zeta Jones debuted on the British stage, starring in the musical 42nd Street, but first made a name for herself in the early '90s when she starred in the Yorkshire Television comedy/drama series The Darling Buds of May. Based on a series of novels by H.E. Bates, the show was a smash hit and made Jones one of the United Kingdom's most popular television actresses. Dark-haired and brown eyed, Jones has an exotic look that enables her to play a wide variety of interesting roles. Following the demise of her first series, Jones returned to the stage and then starred in the miniseries Catherine the Great. She had made her film debut in Philip de Broca's Scheherazade (1990). It was de Broca who discovered Jones while she was performing on stage. Jones subsequently played supporting roles in several films, including Christopher Columbus: The Discovery (1992) and a larger part as the seductive Sala in The Phantom (1996) before landing her first co-starring stint playing the fiery Elena opposite Anthony Hopkins and Antonio Banderas in The Mask of Zorro (1998). A talented singer, Jones has occasionally performed with the English National Opera."
-- Sandra Brennan,
All Movie Guide

I also found some picture galleries and was tempted to add a picture or two here, but they were too hot. So, she is a singer and her son's name is Dylan; if that is a reference to Bob Dylan, then I am deeply, deeply in love - again.

Dear Gnashton,

There's no need for anger, there's no need for blame
There's nothing to prove, everything's still the same
Just a table standing empty by the edge of the sea
Fairwell, Catherine Zeta, I just will repeat-a,
You're not Lady Susan to me

From the Meister: Sniff, sniff, ... SOB!

Dear Meister,

... Cal do?

Dear Linda,

Thank you, thank you for asking; I hope you don't decide that was a mistake.

They beat Penn in the first round and then lost to Pitt in the second. They had this weird second half of the Pitt game in which they went 9½ minutes without scoring and 11 minutes without a field goal. It was hilarious watching the folks from Pitt congratulating themselves after the game for their great defense. The truth is that the Golden Bears don't shoot consistently well and have been inconsistent so all year. They got a lot of good shooting opportunities that would have been sufficient to win this game otherwise. Theirs is basically a team that succeeded with excellent coaching, depth, and patient team defense and offense. Occasionally they shot well this season, but they didn't have the superstar shooters to do that consistently.

Dear Meister,

The son-in-law was flipping channels when I caught a few minutes of the Penn-Cal game.  Cal was ahead and looked pretty good.  I am sorry they did not go further.

Before that I was wondering what "ball" game was involved - basket, foot, tennis, volley, etc.  BTW I do enjoy a good game when I have a favorite to pull for.  Lord, you should have heard me hollering during the Superbowl!  Especially when that guy ran all the way from one end of the field to the other for a touchdown and it didn't count.  Bummer!
Linda - who used to pitch softball in 7th grade.

From the Meister: Interesting! I coached girls' fast-pitch softball for five years. I coached about two or three teams a year, so I coached league teams, All-Star teams, and club teams. I even assisted with my daughter's high school junior varsity. She moved up to varsity her sophomore year and out of my level. She was an excellent player but she played only to please her dad; I learned my lesson from that and so I will never give my grandson any encouragement beyond what he absolutely needs.

Dear Folks,

I don't know how it happened - some kind of e-reverie I guess - but I ended up at the Library of Congress web site. They have a feature called, "ask a librarian"; I figured, "Oh, what the hell" and filled out a form and asked for some help on "what men have said about Jane Austen." (I am planning an expansion of our page on those things.)

I received an e-mail the very next day, signed in this way
Abby Yochelson
Reference Specialist/English Literature
Humanities and Social Sciences Division
Library of Congress

Ms. Yochelson already had useful tips for me, but explained that my request was not perfectly clear. I replied to the e-mail and included an invitation to visit the web pages that I had already put together on this subject as examples of what I was after. I figured that would be a nonsequitur. A few days later, I received a comprehensive reply. Ms. Yochelson obviously had visited our site, understood what she was about, and had assembled references to a number of print sources that will allow me to greatly expand our collection of "praise from male voices". Our Librarian also recommended a number of on-line sources including the Republic of Pemberly and those at various Jane-Austen societies.

I don't know about you, but I am deeply impressed! Here is the "ask a librarian" URL:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-main.html
Enjoy!

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