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6/22/02 Cheryl - P&P '85

Suncoast happened to have another copy of P&P, so I was able to watch it over the past couple of days.  The transfer remains atrocious, though at least watchable, not that the production values of the '85 version are much to speak of.  It looks as it they filmed it on used home video tape.

As for the rest of it, over all I still would say that it's no worse than P&P '95, given that it's 3 hours shorter, and in certain ways better.  P&P '95 seems rather mean-spirited in comparison—Mrs. Bennet too shrill and shrewish, Mr. Bennet too bitter and "hateful" as they say in the south,  Elizabeth seems to feel affection for no member of her family except Jane.

The '85 version gives us something more in line with what I think JA had in mind: a doting but silly mother; a weak and indulgent—but basically decent—father and typically squabbling sisters.  The second half works better than the first.  I don't find Elizabeth Garvie's performance particularly "barbie doll-ish" and I didn't see a single instance of feminist revision.  Films alway reflect the times in which they were made and the fact that Garvie's Elizabeth is a bit softer than Ehle's isn't so very strange given that it was made 10 year earlier.

As for David Rintoul, yes his Darcy was stiff even for Fitzwilliam, but just as in the '95 version I would put that down to the director rather than the actor.  Lawrence Olivier had a better handle on the Darcy character: a man who could be uncommonly pleasing and amiable when among friends.  Olivier actually flirts during the flirtatious scenes (even the very, very few taken out of the book) while Rintoul speaks his "woodenly" as has been noted and Colin Firth speaks his as if he missed his anti-psychotic meds for a few days.

Mr. Darcy means to be witty when he says "Her a beauty! I'd as soon call her mother a wit," so why does Firth speak those lines so bitterly?  Why do both Firth and Rintoul give the "I can admire you better from here" speech as if they were yelling at an underhouse maid who failed to do her job properly rather than teasing two attractive women?   Presumably because the directors didn't have a clue as to Mr. Darcy's character, or perhaps it is just that complex characters aren't allowed outside of the written page.
Cheryl

6/22/02 Ashton - reply

Dear Cheryl,

So, you wish to defend Mr. Bennet and Olivier do you? I won't make another defense of Jennifer Ehle, but I will give my interpretations of those passages you refer to and put them in my rather different light; and, of course, I would never pass up any opportunity to pounce on one of my favorite targets, loser Bennet.

Before that, I will only say that my impression is perfectly, 1000%, absolutely the exact opposite of yours in one regard. I saw far more animus amongst the Bennet sisters in P&P-85, to the degree that I was shocked at what I saw.

I don't think that Darcy actually says, "Her a beauty! I'd as soon call her mother a wit," in the novel. There, we learn of that remark only because Caroline Bingley brings it up at Pemberley just after Elizabeth's unexpected departure. Darcy does say that in the filmed version, P&P-95, so that was artistic license on the part of the screenwriter and/or director. In my opinion, it is played in a manner perfectly consistent with the novel; Darcy was pissed at that moment and very well could have let something like that slip out. Remember Darcy had nearly instantaneously obtained a bad reputation in Hertfordshire and Elizabeth, in her anger, had helped hurry that process along. (Two facts carefully played out in P&P-95.) Darcy would have been sensitive to those things, and that might have led to his slip of the tongue. As you know, I think far more of the Darcy character than you, so I am unwilling to imagine that he would say such a thing merely to entertain his company, at a moment when his blood was not up. Both Darcy and Elizabeth have sharp, quick tempers and neither would back down from an attack—one of the many reasons that I love them both.

The passage containing Darcy's comment, "I can admire you better from here," is yet another beautifully written passage in the most perfect of novels. I consider his speech as off-color and ill-advised even though he accurately, if implicitly, criticized Caroline for arranging that display. His bigger blunder was that he tarred Elizabeth with the same brush and that set her off—after all, she had resisted Caroline's plan but decorum required her to give in. And then, that hated Darcy characterized that promenade for what it was!—Oh, blast his #%&$!*ing hide! (I feel for Darcy because I have made those very same blunders too often in my life.) He then got exactly what he deserved. Well, not exactly; in fact, Jane Austen had Elizabeth go too far on her part; she called Darcy names where she paused in her ridicule of him. The punishment did not fit the crime and reached a crescendo when Elizabeth exclaimed, " 'And your defect is a propensity to hate every body.' " Jane Austen then compensated Darcy by giving him the final and telling blow, " 'And yours', he replied, with a smile, 'is willfully to misunderstand them.' "

You say that Jane Austen's Mr. Bennet is, "... a weak and indulgent—but basically decent—father." Who does he indulge? He allows Lydia to go to Brighton in order to get rid of her. He doesn't indulge Jane or Elizabeth—how could he, he barely even knows what is happening to either of them. That charade he pulls with his wife and Elizabeth in the aftermath of Collins's proposal is cruelty in the first degree. Hardly the act of a decent man. How do you reconcile your opinion with Elizabeth's eventual condemnation of her father?

6/22/02 Cheryl - Harry Potter And The Chamber Of Secrets

Dear Voices,

The teaser trailer and poster for Harry Potter And The Chamber Of Secrets has arrived on the WB web site.  Frankly, Dobby looks absolutely nothing like what I imagined a house elf, but as production designs are based on JKR's notes and doodles, I guess I'll just have to accept it.  We'll be getting the great comedic actress Miriam Margoyles as Professor Sprout, though she might better have been saved to play Aunt Marge.  Im afraid this is the best fans can hope for as "HP and The Order Of The Phoenix" has been pushed back a few more months, no doubt due to the increasing complexity of the universe that's been created. It doesn't do to have illegal flying motorbikes or Harry's mom turning teapots into hedgehogs during her summer break when it's not allowed.

P.S. I shall be bacheloretting it for a few days next week while the spousal unit heads off to Neah Bay to fill in (Yes, THAT Neah Bay) so I will make a good faith effort to record the number of time Jennifer Ehle weeps, dribbles, cries, sobs, and generally acts like a wet blanket in P&P '95.
Cheryl

From the Meister: OK, so you have 15 seconds of your time planned, what will you do with the rest of the time?

6/22/02 Bruce - The Trouble with Harry

Dear Cheryl et. al.,

I'm not really looking forward to the next Harry Potter movie because the first was so mediocre.  The sets were nice, the action OK, and the adult actors were fine.  However, the movie never captured the British Boarding school atmosphere, so important to the success of the books.  The books combined two children's novel genres: the Public School novel, and the fantasy novel.  The movie did the fantasy OK, but failed on the other part.

Why did it fail?  The usual reasons. Too much time was spent on the action scenes, and the child actors weren't very good.

6/20/02 Bruce - Reply to Jim(?)

6/20/02

Dear Jim(?),

You apparently misread my original post.  Although Austen informs us that Marianne eventually learns to love Brandon, this is after they are married, not before.

"Marianne Dashwood ... was born to overcome an affection formed so late in life as at seventeen, and with no sentiment superior to strong esteem and lively friendship, voluntarily to give her hand to another!"

Now perhaps Brandon was prescient, and knew Marianne would eventually fall for him, but I doubt it.

The weakness of Sense and Sensibility is that neither of its heroes is attractive (or even very interesting) to the reader.  This doesn't ruin the book, because the main romance in the book is that between Marianne and Elinor.  That relationship is well drawn and moving -- unlike any scenes involving the Colonel.

6/20/02 Linda - Elizabeth, Master and Commander, and Barry Lyndon

Dear Voices,

It has been a busy week at home and I see on the board also.  The hurrieder I go the behinder I get!  On Saturday I went to the library looking for Master and Commander and also found Elizabeth both of which I brought home.  Searching online Sunday I surprisingly found Barry Lyndon at my 'hole in the wall' library which I brought home Monday.

First, Elizabeth with Cate Blanchette - I can see where she just might have the range to do Mary Wollstonecraft.  She would have to go brunette though.  I liked the movie well enough except that it was so terribly depressing from a Christian point of view.  The Protestants and Catholics fought too viciously and way too much.  I know, it's still going on today, but this movie was so realistically graphic it really gives one a wake up call.  It should not be that way; I have spoken!

I managed to get 85 pages read of Master and Commander.  Jim, here are my 'first impressions'.  Please keep in mind that I am speaking as one who is an analyst at heart and who spent a lot of time the past year editing ('commenting on' is a better term) a book for an Internet friend from Australia (newly published in April - here is a LINK).  I can't seem to get myself out of that mode, and since you had specifically asked for comments, I caught myself reading M/C with 'editor pencil in hand'.

My impression was that the story moved rather slowly, but I had to remember that this was also a "first novel" for him and he was setting up a lot of the machinery.  He used quite a bit of naval jargon with which I am unfamiliar.  It made me wonder if he had written this specifically for naval folk.  I had to read it with dictionary in hand, but that fact does not bother me because I like to know everything anyway.  Since I am particularly interested in this time period, I do believe that overall I will enjoy all the books very much.  I suspect that I will end up appreciating JA's sailor brothers a lot more also.

Let me give you an example of things I did not understand.  "he [Maturin] was a small, dark, white-faced creature"  How on earth can someone be 'dark' and 'white-faced' at the same time?

"Mrs. Williams has a young cousin who is with child to go to sea - wants to be a purser later on."  What does he mean by 'with child'?  As you can well imagine, it means 'pregnant' to me. The only thing I can figure out is that the cousin has a child.

POB used a phrase in describing sea life as "their isolation from women" and then the sentence "He pondered gloomily upon the extreme care that should be taken with shipmates - cheek by jowl - very like marriage - the inconvenience of pragmatic, touchy, assuming companions - incompatible tempers mewed up together in a box." (emphasis mine) This reminded me of my comment to a merchant seaman once.  When he described life aboard ship I said that it sounded like a marriage, but without women.  He agreed in that they must 'get along' with one another.  From this I see that Mr. O'Brian is very attentive to all those details.

I did learn a lot of new words such as 'dunnage', 'petticoat breeches', and 'slop-book' whose meaning remains obscure.  I found only one comma missing but very generously attributed it to the fact that the printer might have missed a lick.  That said I still suspect that I will greatly enjoy his books.  All I need is time.

Now how did the subject of Barry Lyndon come up?  Oh, yes - dueling or W. M. Thackeray or whatever.  I loved the music and Patricia Rozema should have employed the set decorator and costumer for her travesty.  The scenery was beautiful.  I forgot to make note of where it was filmed. I believe Thackeray was a contemporary of the Brontes.  I could see  "Gothic" oozing from every scene and the plot.  There must have been a fixation at that time (c. 1850s) for the Gothic era of Radcliffe, etc.  One aside, since we are in the custom of casting potential movies here, even though I am not overly fond of Ryan O'Neal, he struck me as resembling Tom Lefroy.  If ever a movie was made with that character, he might do though he is too old for the part now.

And finally, for whatever reason - Hugh Grant struck me as 'walking on eggshells' in S&S.  It appeared to be so ridiculous to me that if there was an 'artistic' reason for it, it escaped my notice.

Cheryl, you are aware that the gentleman who portrayed Willoughby is Greg Wise the then boyfriend/whatever of Miss Thompson's and later on the father of her child - so what could we expect?
Linda

6/20/02 DAGHDA Jim - First Impressions (now where have I heard that phrase?) of M&C

Dear Linda,

I note that your first impressions are similar to mine and many other people's.  If you are truly mad for looking things up and mastering them, be advised that a bit of Googling and link-chasing will bring you to several very POB-informative sites and reference (not to exclude cook-)books.  One is "A Sea of Words" by POB's unauthorized biographer Dean King.  Another is by Gary Brown, but the title escapes me. (Called PASC by fans, it refers to Persons, Animals, Ships(?) and Cannon in the 20 books).  But that is for you to track down and enjoy.

For myself, I have read and re-read the books probably six or more times at the M&C end and once at the Books 19 and 20 end - and I still have very little idea what all of the rigging/sails/puddening the gammoned gambrills stuff is all about.  Be advised that it really doesn't matter much whether you master it or not.  Jack Aubrey knows, and his officers and seamen know, and POB will always explain things when it is important for YOU the reader to know. And he usually does this by having someone explain things to Stephen Maturin, who is a rather slow learner of things nautical (He has finally learned the difference between port and starboard by about book 10 or 12).

As for your cited questions, let me try to shed some light:

"he [Maturin] was a small, dark, white-faced creature"

"...young cousin who is with child to go to sea..."

A word of warning about that website; it has a rather higher volume than this one: 60-80 emails a day in your inbox when at flood.  I subscribe to a digest form and read about two or three of the daily six or more digests. Caviat subscriber!

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

6/22/02 Cheryl - slop

Dear Linda,

A "slop book" was the record of what sailors took out of the "slops chest" which was a collection of clothing, needles and thread, and other items a sailor might have need of during a long voyage should he lose something or suffer some misfortune, or be promoted and need something suitable to wear.  "Slops chest" was in current usage in the US Navy through WWII.  (From the book When a Loose Cannon Flogs a Dead Horse, There's The Devil to Pay which is about nautical terms which came into general usage, though it's not quite 100% accurate.)

6/20/02 Ashton - Shekhar Kapur

Dear Linda,

Shekhar Kapur was the director of Elizabeth. He was born in Pakistan but he might be Indian. Most of his screen credits are from the sub-continent, although that seems to be changing at present.

His work on Elizabeth makes an interesting contrast with that of Ang Lee on the filmed version of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility. As you well know, I am very negative about Lee's effort; I must admit that after that film I was filled with a pride and a prejudice against the possibility that someone from an Asian culture might have enough of a grasp of western culture to be successful in such a role. Shekhar Kapur relieved me of that prejudice—his direction of Elizabeth was superb. (Perhaps, many Brits will disagree.)

And yet, I think I detected an Asian—certainly a foreign perspective in many of those scenes. However, I found that influence to be as welcome as it was measured. I couldn't help wondering that it may have been an advantage for the director to have had a perspective that did not carry the same baggage—the cliches, the fixed notions, the indoctrination—that we in the west carry about with us.

The best example, of what I am trying to say might be the final scenes. This is all done visually with no explicit dialogue—in those scenes the impression is given that Elizabeth tries to become a substitute for the Virgin Mary with her choice of title, the Virgin Queen, and her choice of that pearl-white makeup that gave the appearance of all those statues of the Virgin so common in Catholic churches and homes. "Is this some unwelcome foreign interpretation?, I wondered, "Is this a profanity?" Then I realized that the proper question is, "is this the truth?" I think it might be, and I think it shocking. I suspect that Elizabeth, the film, will stand the test of time. If you think about it, such a thing would have been a brilliant political move by Elizabeth. Perhaps a far better way to think about this is that it was all done unconsciously, and the substitution of Virgin icons was an unconscious effect of Elizabeth's choices.

If for no other reason, the American public should be grateful to that film for calling Cate Blanchett to our attention. Incidentally, thank you for reminding everyone that Blanchett would be my nominee to play Mary Wollstonecraft if anyone ever made such a film.

Yes, the religious violence of that time was appalling. Aren't you glad that there is nothing like that in the world today? We are all too civilized nowadays.

6/22/02 Cheryl - virgins and directors

Dear Ash,

I've read Emma Thompson asked for Ang Lee to direct for just the reasons you mention about Elizabeth, though I know you don't think it was very sucessful.  I think it's a very modern interpretation/justification/theory/whatever to say that Elizabeth one day consciously decided to become the Virgin Queen, though there's a general consensus among historians and biographers that she relished the cult which grew up around her. I think she DID make the conscious decision that it would be too dangerous for her to marry with so much political, social, and religious upheaval going on and that by the time she had weathered the storms, it was too late for her to produce an heir, so why marry?

Still, whether she was a virgin or not, the chance to become the first "official" bedder of Elizabeth kept handsome, rich, and powerful men sniffing after her for 40 years...men whose talents she used to her own and her country's advantage; men who filled the royal coffers with great wealth and gave England a toe hold in the New World. It's too bad her choice of a successor was such a pratt.
Cheryl

6/21/02 Bree - Hugh as Willoughby?

Dear Cheryl and Dadagh,

This is quite provocative, but I have to go with D. Jim here.  Hugh Grant is not Willoughby material because he lacks the dash.  He has a lot of other things, but there's a certain languid quality that wouldn't fit with Willoughby.  Agree also with Dadagh's (and Cheryl's) opinion of Rickman as actor.  No egg in his shoe!

6/21/02 Breething deeply - Tess

Dear Rashtional,

OK I will search, or keep searching.  Yes, Natasha Kinski - why not cast her as Aunt Norris?  We certainly have had fun with the egg in Hugh's shoe (or Hoe's shugh!).  You got any more of 'em up your sleeve????

6/22/02 Cheryl - Jim, you are doing fine

Dear DAGHDA Jim,

You seem to be doing just fine posting, thank you very much.  Ash used the term "eggwalk" first I think, but then he hates Emma Thompson's S&S anyway.  I am reminded of a quote by Ang Lee that went something like "Hugh Grant has to do more than just act charming in this film" which was of course perfectly untrue.  Okay, I supposed he acted "diffident" and charming.  I perhaps have the advantage over other people by having seen Lair Of The White Worm Ken Russell's homage to the Hammer films.  HG got to be a take charge kind of guy and never dithered once through the whole thing.  He wasn't  exactly Rambo, but he did evidence a fair amount of "dash."   And remember that he did quite well as the Wickham character in Bridget Jones Diary.

Perhaps what Marianne deserved was a few months scubbing chamber pots at Heloise's old convent to remind her how true romantic martyrdom works.
Cheryl

6/23/02 Ashton - the Meister plan

Dear Folks,

I thought to tell you my plans for this summer in case you might want to help or in case you might want to know which rocks to stockpile.

First of all, I am presently composing a long posting on a comparison of Jane Eyre with Fanny Price. This is going to get me into a whole lot of trouble! That will appear in the first week of July. Nothing has brought me more abuse at this site than my readings of the novels and the understandings of the Bronte sisters. Don't think of this as an insider trading tip, but my stock is about to plunge even further.

I am currently reading Ivanhoe and I am glad of it. It will be a pleasure to post on a macho contemporary of Jane Austen and one who acknowledged that our Lady was his superior.

I am also planning for the research that will allow me to expand my "What famous men have said about Jane Austen" pages. Any assistance you can offer in that regard will be most welcome. Incidentally, the popularity of those pages (17,000 visits) is surpassed only by the interest in the Mary Wollstonecraft pages (25,000 visits) at this web site.

I know that the rest of you will have more interesting things to say. I remember that some one claimed to be on the bree-ink of leading our discussion of Lady Susan and Sanditon. Another exclaimed, "Friends, womans, male-voices! linda me your ears, I come here to praise feminism!" I won't mention any names—it is not my nature to pressure someone.

6/23/02 Linda - Very funny! And, my feminist journey

Dear Ashton,

I know of whom you speak. At present I am gathering my ammunition, er, my materials.  'Feminism' is an absolutely amazing subject. I go the gamut of emotions from a high of freedom, on to anger, then to the depths of depression. I know not where I shall end, but the journey is exciting!
Linda

6/23/02 DAGHDA Jim - BBC/A&E 1995 P&P DVD

To All,

I have finally opened, taken out, and tried to hook up my birthday gift DVD player.  Finding that my stoneage TV needed an RF Modulator to act as an interface between the tricolor wiring output of the DVD, I hied myself and bought one.  Then I hied myself out again because there was still this missing little video cable to link the RFM to the TV.

Success! Huzzay! Huzzay!  The only DVD that was handy was (Subject), and so I watched it over two evenings.  I had forgotten how rich it was in production values, casting, etc.  And, of course, the story.  Producer Sue Birtwhistle had the right of it when she said (paraphrasing here):  I have read it over a hundred times, and I still find myself suspending (my full knowledge - something like that) and wonder if the two warring lovers will ever get together.

No spoiler I; I will not tell you.  This was perhaps my fourth time watching it, and I was able to note the number of times that Eliza eckshewelly cried.  I saw only once (yeay, Ashton!), but noted that there were several other points at which a lesser woman might well have cried.  I also watched Mr. Collins carefully, thinking that he might well have eggwalked in a scene here or there, but saw nothing definitive.

Of course, having the DVD will put me further at a disadvantage in these friendly debates over P&P, in that the visual image tends to drive out the printed page.  I have read P&P perhaps twice, yet have seen various filmed versions a total of, well,: 1940 once or twice, 1985 once, and this one quatrice (if that is a word).  Obviously I have to get a personal copy of P&P and read it over and over.  (But I have to finish The Lord of the Rings first, and there are six or seven other books stacked to be read...what is a reader to do?  And then there are the other JAs to read and reread as well.)

I had better get cracking!  Ooops, but I am here at work and have some work/work to do today.  Oy!
DAGHDA Jim

6/24/02 First Bree-cinct - A gentle hint!

Dear Ash-tongue,

Okay okay.  I get your drift, dear MAD Meister.  Will go get Sanditon and re-do Lady Susan, those letters are so fascinating.  Won't drag on it any longer.  I just wonder which approach would be good to take regarding Lady S.  We had no luck casting same, so maybe I'll just rehash and let the interest (or yawns) come rolling in!  You have an ambitious project for the summer - can the rest of us VOICES do less?  Will be looking forward to your postings re comparing Jane and Fanny!

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