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6/26/02 Hold your Breeth! - You asked for it: Lady Susan

Dear Ashton and Voices,

This is the first official "LSL" post of the summer (Lady Susan Letters). First, I would like to inquire if anyone knows of any other work of JA written in the form of correspondence?  It is a very provocative and personal strategy in writing fiction, and I have always been drawn to it.  Sort of like a verbal photo album.

I have noticed in her other novels, JA is often detailed and explicit in describing the background situations of her characters, and in LSL she allows all of this to be inferred from the correspondence of each individual.  Other than the famous letter of our friend Fitzwilliam Darcy, most of the correspondence of JA's characters tends to be on the short side, and used mainly to clarify an existing situation (of course Aunt Gardiner's letter to Elizabeth revealing the truth about Lydia's wedding was a little longer, but nothing like Mr. Darcy's epistle).  Even in the case of Uncle Gardiner writing to Mr. Bennet, the reader is only allowed to hear excerpts from his letter regarding Wickham and Lydia.

JA showed some (or more) "greatness of mind" in the way each letter, no matter who wrote it or to whom it was addressed, served as a portrait of the respective character.  Furthermore, it did not require extensive numbers of letters to know exactly what kind of persons we were dealing with.  One or two letters served as the "little bit of ivory" on which JA inscribed her portraits.  Modern authors who make use of diary/correspondence mode to develop characters could still learn from her!  Agree/disagree?

6/26/02 Ash-not Want-not - The form and provenance of Lady Susan

Dear Bree-eminent,

Thank you for this effort, you will improve the content of this site and we are all grateful for that.

As you point out, Lady Susan is written in the "epistolary" form—in the style of a series of letters. I think that was a fad when Jane Austen was growing up. Jean-Jacques Rousseau's La Nouvelle Heloise (1761) was written in that style, and, if we are to take Jean-Jacques's word for it, that was the greatest novel of its time. Jane Austen was born in 1775. I think Rousseau was a smuck, and I hope he was not an influence.

A better example of the epistolary forms that might have influenced Jane Austen, are the ponderous novels of Samuel Richardson; we can be absolutely certain that he was an important influence on Jane Austen, but only during her teen years. See especially, my comments on the influence of his The History of Sir Charles Grandison (1753-4). Little wonder that Jane Austen would have experimented with that style at a very young age.

Fanny Burney was Jane Austen's favorite author when our Lady was a young woman and some of her novels were in the epistolary form and some were not. Just before our Lady began to publish, her favorite novelist was Maria Edgeworth; I don't believe that Edgeworth ever wrote in the epistolary form but I am not sure. On the other hand, as you go back to Jane Austen's grandfather's generation—like back to the novels of Swift, Defoe, or Fielding—you find the narrative form used almost exclusively—I think so but, again, I am no expert.

The upshot may be that Jane Austen wrote this novella in her late teens and in a style that was all the rage; but, by the time that she began her serious work, the fashion had changed. By the bye, her original manuscript of Sense and Sensibility was written in the epistolary style. Also, if you look at her Juvenilia, you will find the youthful Jane Austen experimenting with epistolary form in an hilarious way. So, at the dawning of her creative life, Jane Austen seems to have imagined that she would write in that style.

The provenance of the manuscript for Lady Susan is equally interesting. If I remember right, she wrote it in her late teens, kept it, and made a "fair copy" near the end of her life. All manuscripts were hand-written, of course, and it was Jane Austen's habit to continually fiddle with a manuscript, changing and adding words or even complete passages while crossing out others. A "fair copy" meant that after the author was satisfied, she would then rewrite the manuscript incorporating all the changes. So, the fact that a fair copy was made so late is considered significant—I consider it only interesting.

Jane Austen's nephew was sixteen when he attended her funeral. In his eighties, he and other family members noticed that, "Gee, folks are still reading Aunt Jane's books!" So, he decided to write her biography, her first biography. A even bigger wonder to the family was that the biography sold like hotcakes as well. Imagine that! When he was preparing the second edition, he decided to publish Lady Susan in an appendix. That was a manuscript that was only collecting dust at the time. The women in the family said, "Oh, no you won't!" but he did, and we are glad he did. I believe the objection was that Lady Susan was too closely modeled after the Lloyd grandmother. Mary Lloyd had become the second wife of brother James Austen, and her sister, Martha Lloyd, had been the fourth inmate at Chawton and, eventually, the wife of brother Admiral Sir Francis Austen.

6/26/02 Bree - Good input

Dear Havin' a Blashton,

Thanks for your informational summary of possible influences on JA's life, and I was particularly interested to know that S&S was originally written in epistolary style.  Is there any way to get a hold of a copy, or perhaps part of it could be included in one of the biographies of the author?  Whatever the influence, nobody did it better than JA.  More to come...

6/27/02 Atoned - manuscripts

Dear Breepared,

I THINK that the only surviving manuscripts are those for the Lady Susan, The Juvenilia, Sanditon, and The Watsons. The fact that the manuscript for Sense and Sensibility was in epistolary form is something you see in all the biographies and is derived, I believe, from family testimonies. Incidentally, the tentative title at that time was Elinor and Marianne. What do you think the manuscript for, say, Pride and Prejudice might sell for these days?

Oh I forgot one other manuscript: that would be the manuscript for a child's play our Lady wrote. Here is a link to info about that.

Brace yourself, this is going to hurt. If you think it a shame that no Jane Austen manuscript survives, then think about this. Brother Francis was sent away to the Navel Academy at age 12, Jane Austen would have been 11 at the time. He graduated at age 16 and was sent immediately to sea for his apprenticeship, after which time he worked his way up to an admiral's rank and was still such a "sailor" at the time of sister Jane's death in 1817. All that time, our Lady had been writing to him with all the devotion and love we expect from her. He kept them all except for the one he kindly bestowed on a famous American family, the Quincys of Massachusetts. He died at age ninety and his grandson's wife found a large pile of old musty letters among his last possessions and burned them.

6/27/02 Linda - Ouch, and speaking of manuscripts

Dear Bree and Ash,

On eBay there was a live auction on June 25, 2002 for a scrap of paper with these words in Jane's own handwriting:  "Mrs. Forster Avenue de Macboeuf No. 23 Champs Elysee".  It sold for $1,300.00.

Oh, how I wish we had those letters!  I braced myself but it still hurts.

6/27/02 Bree-ced Herself - Manuscripts and Quincys

Dear Remembrance Of Things Pashton,

Original manuscript of P&P?  $50-100 thousand, maybe more.  When I think what people pay for memorabilia of movie stars - that would be getting it cheap!

Regarding the letters of Francis (who I believe was the model for William Price, you said?), it is a sin and a shame.  However, I did go to the link you had underlined about the Quincy family, but was connected to a discussion of Elizabeth and Darcy's feelings.  While good, this gave no information about the Quincy family who received one surviving letter of Francis to his sister.

Since I lived in Massachusetts for many years, I have heard a lot about various Quincys (pronounced in MA as "Quin-zee", not "Quin-cee").  I worked in a town called Quincy, named after Josiah Quincy, an activist in the American Revolution.  [Right now he is probably whirling in the grave over this assinine decision of the 9th circuit court of appeals about the pledge to the flag - don't get me started.] Was it his family who took possession of this letter?  I think the presidents also proceeded from this same family.  Not to sound like Bette Davis, but what happened to the letter?

PS - more to be posted on u-no-who

6/27/02 pAshion - the missing link?

Dear Bree-ordained,

I don't understand, that link should have taken you to the heading, "The Nature of Jane Austen". The letter is discussed in the first paragraph under that. Let me know if you still have a problem. Perhaps you are not waiting long enough for the page to fully load—it is a long page.

Abigail Adams was a granddaughter in the Quincy family. She was the wife of one President, John Adams and the mother of another, John Quincy Adams. So these were American Brahmins who came to possess Jane Austen's letter. I don't know what became of the letter, good question. I will try to find out. By the bye, at least two letters to brother Francis do exist; I will look up the provenance of those.

I suspect that you greatly underestimate the value of that imaginary manuscript.

6/28/02 mAshter - Addendum: letters, real and imagined

Dear Bree-packaged,

I consulted Deirdre Le Faye's most recent edition of the Jane Austen letters (1997) and learned some interesting things (and not just the correct spelling of "provenance"). I will pass those things along, and then I will respond to your comments about the letters in P&P.

I found nine letters to brother Francis ("Frank") Austen. That is misleading because two were copies of other letters, that had different provenances, and two were mere fragments. One of the fragments had been in his possession but is part of a letter that might not have been addressed to him, and the other was a fragment that was found in some scrapbook somewhere. So, there are, in effect, five existing, complete letters to Frank that appear in Le Faye's collection. Two were addressed to Frank in the Baltic and another to Frank in China.

Most of this small collection was donated to the British Museum by Frank's grandson, Captain Ernest Leigh Austen, RN, in 1930. One of the copies ended up in sister Cassandra's possession. Another letter was given by Frank to Lord William FitzRoy, who "passed it on to Miss Catherine Hutton for her autograph collection."

I consulted Deirdre Le Faye's biography of Jane Austen (1989) to obtain precise information about the destroyed letters and the letter sent to Quincy. As it turns out, both facts are laid down in the midst of a single paragraph on page 252. First of all, let me explain something to you. Martha Lloyd lived with Jane, Cassandra, and Mrs. Austen at Chawton during Jane's most productive years. Later, at age 63, she became Frank's second wife. As you will see, it was one of Jane's letters to Martha that Frank sent on to the Americans in Quincy. Here is the quote.

"... although Frank had carefully preserved the letters that Jane had written to his first wife Mary Gibson, his youngest daughter Fanny-Sophia had destroyed them all, following his death in 1865, without consulting anyone else beforehand, Some of Jane's letters to Martha had come onto Frank's hands, and it was one of these that he sent to the Quincy family in 1852—but how many more of them may have been in his possession at that date is unknown. Fanny Sophia went to live with her widower brother Edward at Barfeston in Kent, and took with her those few letters to Frank himself which still survive; in the 1860s she was prepared to let James-Edward look at them only on the condition that he not publish any, an offer he did feel was worthwhile accepting. ..."

OK, so my memory of this was not perfect, but now the record is straight.

Using this hint, I tracked down the Quincy letter; it is #26 in Le Faye's collection. It was a gift sent to Miss Eliza Susan Quincy of Boston in 1852 and currently resides at the Massachusetts Historical Society, John Quincy Papers II, Boston, Mass.

Finally, let's turn to the letters in Pride and Prejudice. Aunt Gardiner's letter is great fun. This wonderful aunt's wonderfulness shines through, but the main impact of the letter on us may come from Elizabeth's reaction to it—a kind of exquisitely pained, embarrassed joy. And, of course, there is Darcy's letter to Elizabeth. Here is my reaction to that.

Jane Austen was not like Charlotte Bronte in any way, she did not reveal herself in her own letters. There may be one exception to that rule, Linda and I suspect that Jane Austen's eleventh letter might tell us something important about Jane Austen and about Persuasion.

6/24/02 Cheryl - But better than Hitchcock (excepting possibly, North By Northwest)

Dear Bruce,

Yes, the Harry Potter effort was lacking somehow.  Visually it was almost perfect, and the casting was good excepting that if Maggie Smith was captain of Quidditch in 1971, I reckon she spent a good 15 years as a student instead of the more usual seven.

Ron Weasley [Rupert Grint, I think] was the best of the kid actors.

There was one line in which JKR's original words were improved:  "How often do you meet a 3-headed dog, even in you're in the trade?" which did not make up for the criminal mischief of changing "Bought him off a Greek chappie" to "Bought him off an Irish fella" (IRISH FELLA???How many 3 headed dogs are there in Irish mythology???)

All in all, the writer, director, and set designers refused to embrace the darker aspects of the novels, both the "real world" such as kids bullying (as well as the teachers in some cases) and fighting each other; Hagrid's semi constant drunkenness—and the fantasy; how Dumbledore allows Harry to go into the forest even though he apparently knows Voldemort's making an attempt to come back; and note the number of people who have presumably been murdered on the Hogwart's grounds.

The film fell apart for me as soon as Ron, Hermoine and Harry went through the trap door.  The attacking keys were particularly stupid while the chessboard scene was poorly imagined and went on forever. Voldemort didn't look even vaguely snake like, though Ian Hart did a nice turn as Quirrell.

It's the same with Roald Dahl's books:  Dahl ends The Witches with the main character and his grandmother taking mutual comfort in the thought that a healthy young mouse and an ailing old woman might reasonably be expected to live about the same length of time, so neither of them will have to be alone for very long, should the other die first. I'm not sure about any of his other books, but I imagine they're about the same. Though Danny Devito's "Matilda" was admittedly fairly nasty (and very well liked by kids.)

BTW, I just saw a trailer (now several months old) for the Disney Channel's A Wrinkle in Time which looks as if it might just be the worst adaptation in history.  Maybe Disney hired Patricia Rozema.—it's a joint venture with Miramax, after all.
Cheryl

6/25/02 Linda - The Rocketeer and etc.

Dear Cheryl, et al.,

Not being a dyed-in-the-wool sci-fi fan, I will leave HP to Cheryl and Bruce.  But I did finally see The Rocketeer last night.  Cheryl, if you remember that movie came up a while back, and I brought home my daughter's copy about six months ago (or has it been a year, yikes!).  I saw it many years ago and remember liking it.  Well, I still like it.  I could go into all the whys and wherefores but will mention only one item.  You know how 'the girl' always stands around in a fight scene being totally useless; well, this time she did very little of that and actually participated by breaking a few vases over the heads of the bad guys, and doing some 'acting diversions' of her own.  Refreshing indeed!  The only bad part was that I forgot to breathe until it was over.  All in all, it was enjoyable, and thanks for bringing it up.

Cheryl, as usual, I see that you have put the Meister's plans into perspective with your "Celebrity Deathmatch".  Funny, when you describe Rochester that way, it gives me a whole new slant on him, but oh, so true.  I still want to read JE again with 'eyes wide open'.

Poor Jim, you have a stack of only six or seven plus some JA to read.  I had to make an inventory of the books I buy at the library sales so that I would not repeat myself.  I am now up to 300+ - yet to be read!  How's that for being behind.  I still say that one has not read JA until her books have been read at least six times.  BTW I buy the used paperbacks so that I can mark them up with my own opinions, etc.  At present I have no use for a "pretty" library just to look at.  I use my books.  Well, I do have a couple of hardbacks that I don't scribble in.

Bree - I have read both Lady Susan and Sanditon and made notes at the time, so I may be able to follow along with you.  Go to it.  My 'feminism' study will take a while
Linda

6/25/02 DAGHDA Jim - Unread books

Dear Linda,

In my defence (for having such a meager pile of books to read), let me say that I have many more books to be read ... but I'm not exactly sure where they are at the moment.  There are many, many places in my room where a wily, independent tome might hide itself; heaps and heaps of piles and piles.  To say nothing of under the furniture.  But I doubt that they can rise to 300+ books (since the bottommost ones are prolly composting into obliteration.)

For a pure off-topic change of subject, I recently read that Chrisopher Lee, who plays Suraman in the Lord Of the Rings, reads the three (or six, for purists) volumes every year, and has actually met and spoken with JRR Tolkien.  He said that his characterization in the film was based on the way that JRRT spoke.
DAGHDA Jim

6/26/02 Cheryl - Movies, new and old

Dear Linda,

As I've said, I quite enjoy The Rocketeer. As I recall it was a big loser for Disney at the box office.  Partly because the comic had a reputation for being a favorite of yuppies and partly because those yuppies decided it couldn't be very cool or cutting edge of Disney was making a movie of it.

"The Rocketeer" was part of the graphic novel revolution which created a new type of adult comic...one that wasn't just a cartoon form of Playboy and Hustler level smut or dope humor. Of course nowadays anyone within commuting distance of a Kinko's can (and does) self publish his own comic.

I just saw Minority Report and I must say I quite enjoyed it. Spielberg can entertain when he puts his mind to it.  Don't be fooled by the reviews...this isn't a "deep" movie; it's a mystery thriller set in the future.  It's full of the sort of inconsistencies that made A.I. so laughable, but in this case I didn't mind so much because I was too busy enjoying the movie instead of being bored off my butt.

Spielberg chose to focus on the question of predestination and choice, which to my mind barely scratches the surface of the basic idea (arresting people before they commit murder, which is predicted by a trio of "precogs" who can see  the future...or maybe not.)

Unaddressed, but fascinating is the question of who defines murder? Do the precogs see the drug dealer who sells a 17 year old his first dose of heroin, which sends him on the road to an o.d. 7 years later?  Do they see the guy who kills his landlady because she's secretly inserting evil messages from Satan into his tv?  Do they see the lawyer who's embezzling from his clients that hits a little girl in the crosswalk? (A death that occurs during the commision of a felony is defined as murder.) Of course, had Spielberg attempted to get into these areas he would have probably made another A.I., or equally bad, another "Blade Runner" two movies which took themselves way too seriously for no good reason.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Alfred Bester's classic The Demolished Man which is also about attempting to prevent a murder.  The detective is a mind-reader and knows his adversary, but nothing is ever that simple.  Even those of you who don't enjoy science fiction might take a crack at this one as it isn't "hard" (gadgets) SF.
Cheryl

6/26/02 Ashton - Movies, old and obscure

Dear Cheryl,

You represent my last chance; if you endorse some of my favorite movies then I won't have to spend my entire life in movie-fan left-field.

I guess that three of my favorite films are P&P-95, the Amanda Root version of Persuasion, and the Justine Waddell version of Tess of the D'Urbervilles, but let us not discuss those. More to the point are What's Eating Gilbert Grape? (the only time I will ever like DiCaprio), Walkabout, Housekeeping (the only time I ever liked Christine Lahti), High Tide (the only time I ever liked Judy Davis).

I will name some others.

Two of that first set are Australian films. I particularly like films from that country perhaps for the same reason I like walking about Ann Arbor Michigan—I like Ann Arbor because it reminds me of the Berkeley that doesn't exist anymore and I like Australian films because they remind me of the time when America was just naive enough to make great films—the America that doesn't exist anymore. Have you ever seen The Interview? Bone chilling! in comparison, Hannibal Lecter is a wussy. I even liked the Mad Max trilogy. And, as you well know, I am a hopeless Baz Luhrmann fan; yea for Strictly Ballroom and Moulin Rouge.

Like many men, I enjoy displays of machismo. We see that most convincingly in the NBA or NFL (or on Little League diamonds), but that is not to the point. Examples of the small number of films that are convincing in this regard are any version of Last of the Mohicans (especially the Madeleine Stowe version), Shane, and Hoosiers—did I mention Mad Max? I am not a John Wayne fan because those poor souls seem to think that Wayne actually did some of those things, but I loved Stagecoach and Hondo, Yeah!

I mentioned science fiction in another place as you did yourself. Let us not repeat that exercise.

On the other hand, I like some of those "talky" films that might drive other viewers up the wall. The best example of that is My Dinner with Andre. And yes—gulp!—I very much liked Princess Bride.

But, for the really obscure tastes, I make mention of Barry Lyndon, Marty, Metropolitan and Barcelona, The Pirates of Penzance (1982), Wait Until Dark, and Streets of Fire. I very much liked that last one because the editing is so innovative (and never imitated), the atmospherics are so strange, and the music is that of Ry Cooder. Cooder has to be the best maker of music for films of all time. His work was approached only once, by Bob Dylan's effort for Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid.

6/24/02 DAGHDA Jim - Message Board Time Warp

To All,

Since this board sometimes seems to be running 24 hours ahead of the day that I am in, I would appreciate any available early AM Sporting events results so that I might get some strategic bets down.  Thanks!
DAGHDA (soon to be rich) Jim

6/24/02 The Meister - at your service

Dear D.J.,

The date used at this site is a derived quantity calculated from a standard formula known to any schoolboy—I am shocked that I have to explain this to some one. The calculation is based upon precise, laser-like measurements of the square of the hypotenuse, the wind direction 3.14159 meters above Winchester Cathedral, the NASDAQ composite index, and the rest mass of the hermaphrodite WHIM.

You can bet the farm that USA will beat France in the 2002 World Cup Championship soccer match final, and that the DOW will go past 11,000 by the last day of this week. The discovery of a previously unanticipated sub-atomic particle, the hermaphrodite WHIM (the h-WHIM), will be announced on Wednesday, and the discovery will be made on Thursday.

6/5/02 Bree - Time warp

Dear D.Jim,

I find the same puzzling situation and wonder sometimes if I missed a day!  I actually look up at the calendar above my computer!  But Ashton explained it so well, there is no longer any doubt, considering the formulae he uses.  Don't you agree???????????

6/25/55 DAGHDA Jim - Backward, Turn Backward Oh Time in thy Flight...

Dear Bree,

Certainly, MAD's explanation makes it all clear to the meanest understanding, so how could I not now understand.  I understand perfectly.  Just as I understand how your date mark reads 6/5/02.

I believe it has something to do with phlogiston fluxes.
DAGHDA Jim

6/26/20 Bree - take your time

Dear DAGHDA Jim,

Yes, and also the square root of pi.

6/24/02 Cheryl - Celebrity Deathmatch

Dear Ashton,

I think a comparison of JE and FP is a brilliant idea!  Two smug, self-satisfied, sniffily superior passive/agressive teenagers going head to head?  Damn, sound like a primo idea for an episode of that "Celebrity Deathmatch"  show I keep hearing about.  Somehow I think Jane might win.  I mean, finding true happiness with a prostitute chasing, drunken, would-be bigamist whose noble nature is considered evident in the fact that he didn't let his daughter starve to death on the streets of Naples, (or wherever it was) would make you tougher than outlasting a prehistoric Valley Girl to marry a preacher.
Cheryl

From the Meister: Well, at least
we can agree about Rochester.

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